By The Right Scoop


This is an article written by Walid Shoebat back in 2009 that defends his views – that Islam is the end times beast – against challengers who continually assert the more modern Western view of European model. The article is based on three challenges that he makes to prove that his view isn’t a radical view, but is supported by traditional views on Bible prophecy as well as scripture itself.

I found it to be a great read and thought I’d share it with you.

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THE DEBATE OVER ANTICHRIST
By Walid Shoebat

THE THREE CHALLENGES
Does the beast of Revelation involve Middle Eastern Muslim nations, is it exclusively European, or is it both? Some say the notion that Islam could play a prominent role in the coming revival of the Roman Empire is impossible, unorthodox, untraditional, the work of ‘Lone Ranger’ type interpretation, and even revisionist..1

The majority of American evangelicals believe that the Antichrist system must be exclusively European, yet this view is changing after the last few years with the rise of Islam.

So, could Islam play a role in this end-times scenario? You might think to yourself—so what? Why should we care? Well, why then did the Almighty give us Daniel and Revelations? Even better still — why did God give us all the Messianic prophesies regarding Jesus’ first coming? Careless followers that missed these ended up without salvation, regardless of whether they sacrificed lambs in the Temple or obeyed the law—when it comes to the issue of Messiah, they missed the most crucial event in history. All for not paying close attention to Bible Prophecy. And what about the second coming? Are we to be careless with respect to the evidence presented in the Bible? I am not saying that you could lose your salvation, but if you end up on the side of Antichrist, you never had salvation in the first place.

Yet today, the debate is brewing—what about the threat of Islam? Did the Bible warn us about it? Are we supposed to keep our focus exclusively on Europe?

To shed light on the implications of such detailed evidence (which spawned countless challenges and questions) I decided to write God’s War on Terror regarding Islam’s involvement in end-times. Consequently, I get challenges daily, not only by Muslims that want me dead but also from Christians who are dogmatic about their views. Ironically, we have no record of any Christian minister killed for exposing the E.U. as the work of Satan, yet we have millions who gave their lives for standing up to Islam. So please allow me to alleviate some pressure and present you with only three challenges:

 

CHALLENGE 1: Did traditional Prophecy scholars teach that Europe is exclusively the Antichrist kingdom?

You might be shocked to know that the highest caliber commentators of old did not believe that Europe was the exclusive player in the End-Times. A revival of a Roman Empire never meant a revival of a European Empire.

Many of our best western scholars on Bible prophecy believed that Islam would be a major player and will revive in the end of days as part of this end-time beast. John Wesley interpreted the Iron in Daniel 2 as Islam (Works, 1841). Hilaire Belloc foresaw Islam‘s rise.2 Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica interpreted the martyrdom of Christians during the Great Tribulation to come from Islam. Josiah Litch interpreted Revelation as the ushering in of Islam.3 He even described the magnitude of Islam’s role being Antichrist to the extent of calling it the “general agreement among Christians, especially protestant commentators.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-368 A.D) in his Divine Institutes believed that Antichrist proceeds forth from the region of ancient Syria4, which today extends from Syria well into portions of Asia Minor (Turkey). Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (560-638) and Maximus the Confessor (580-662) identified Islam with Antichrist and lived through Islam’s invasion of Jerusalem. Maximus was also an important theologian and scholar of the early Church who helped defeat the Monothelite heresy referred to the Muslim invasions as “announcing the advent of the Antichrist.” John of Damascus (676-749) was another very important figure in the early church. In his famous book, Against Heresies, he identified Islam as the forerunner to the Antichrist. Eulogius, Paul Alvarus and the Martyrs of Cordova (9th century) believed Muhammad to be a false prophet and the precursor to the Antichrist.5 Many are not aware that while Martin Luther, father of the Protestant Reformation, believed that the Papacy played the role of the spiritual harlot, he also believed that the Muslims were the Kingdom of Antichrist.6

John Calvin interpreted Daniel 2’s eastern leg [of the statue] as the Eastern-Roman Islamic Empire and that Daniel 11:37 applied to the Muslims.7 Even Jonathan Edwards the great American congregational preacher, revivalist, and president of Princeton University, like Luther and Calvin, saw Islam as one of the premiere elements of the Antichrist Kingdom.8 Calvin even interpreted Islam’s fall at the sound of the great trumpet.9 Islam falling at the sound of the great trumpet even carries Islam into the Great Tribulation and not as many of our contemporary prophecy analysts who allege that Islam must be removed prior to Christ coming.

Even Sir Robert Anderson, perhaps one of the best prophecy experts who unlocked the seventy weeks of Daniel, in his remarkable book The Coming Prince, insists to focus on the Levant (Eastern) parts rather than the Adriatic (West).10

Countless other Bible commentators warned about Islam being the kingdom of Antichrist—Selnecker, Nigrinus, Chytraeus, Bullinger, Foxe, Napier, Pareus, John Cotton, Thomas Parker, Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, and George Stanley Faber.11

Also added to the list is Rev. Professor Dr. Francis Nigel Lee who sums up the traditional view in his excellent work Islam in the Bible: “from the seventh century onward – [the two legs] would degenerate respectively into the Papacy (which progressively took over the West) and Islam (which progressively took over the East.” (p. 5)

Making Europe the exclusive body of Antichrist kingdom is not the orthodox or even the traditional view. Some insist that Antichrist is Italian since he comes from the Roman Empire, but Roman does not strictly mean Italian, just as Alexander the Great was Grecian, this does not mean Athenian—he was from Macedonia. Antiochus Epiphanies, another biblical prediction was Syrian not Athenian or Cypriot. Why then, when it comes to Antichrist, insist on an Italian ignoring the whole empire. Even Jesus insisted that Pergamum in Revelation 2:12-13, was the seat of Satan and not the gymnastically altered interpretation for an archeological relic that sits in Berlin.

While contemporary prophesy analysts trumpet the idea that the fourth composite of Daniel 2 iron metal as strictly European, traditionalist views differ. Dr. Matthew Henry comments: “Who is this enemy—whose rise, reign and ruin are here foretold? Interpreters are not in agreement. Some will have the Fourth Kingdom to be that of the Seleucidae and the ‘little horn’ to be Antiochus…. Others will have the Fourth Kingdom to be that of the Romans, and the ‘little horn’ to be Julius Caesar and the succeeding emperors, as Calvin says. The Antichrist, the Papal Kingdom, says Mr. Joseph Mede.

Others make the ‘little horn’ to be the Turkish Empire [Muslim]; so Luther, Vatablus, and others. Now I cannot prove either side to be in the wrong. Therefore, since prophecies sometimes have many fulfillments, we ought to give Scripture its full latitude (in this as in many other controversies)—I am willing to allow that they are both in the right.”12

NORTH AFRICA
Most students of prophecy that ascribe to a revival of the Roman Empire ignore that North Africa (Phut) encompasses five Muslim nations historically part of the western wing of the Roman Empire, and already mentioned literally in several end-times references. In order for the exclusively European model to fit, the whole of this Muslim region must be irrelevant. So what part of the Roman pie do we slice off and what parts do we include?

CONTEMPORARY VS TRADITIONAL
So what happened? Why do we have such a variation between contemporary versus traditional? The problem began in 1981 when Greece joined as the tenth nation in the European Union and many sounded a false alarm that announced they unlocked the mystery and have the fulfillment of Revelation 17, all with its ten horns, to later be embarrassed when the European Union mushroomed into twenty some nations.

Instead of pulling back their books, these analysts ran back to the drawing board, not to confess their error, but to insist that the E.U. model must shrink to only ten.. They still chose to finagle with the theory. Some, like Arnold Fruchtenbaum, realized that this was wrong: “It has become common today to refer to the ten kingdoms as being in Europe only, especially the Former Common Market, now the European Union. But the text does not allow for this kind of interpretation. At the very best, the European Union might become one of the ten, but it could hardly become all of the ten.”13

According to Fruchtenbaum, the European model comprises only one tenth, a mere slice of the whole pie. Jamieson Fausset & Brown insist that, “the ten toes are not upon the one foot (the west), as these interpretations require, but on the two (east and west) together, so that any theory which makes the ten kingdoms belong to the west alone must err.”

 

CHALLENGE 2: Besides the argument on whether Magog is Russia, can anyone cite any literal reference to a nation that God destroys in the End-Times that is not Muslim?

Only if you ponder this question can you grasp its magnitude. On one occasion during a lecture to a group of prominent Bible prophecy teachers in the Pre-Trib Prophecy Conference in Dallas, I asked this question and no one raised a hand to answer.

In frustration, I pointed to Dr. Randall Price, a known Prophecy teacher and asked him to respond, in which he pointed that when it comes to literal references there are none. Grant Jeffrey, another known author, once attempted to respond with Cush, not realizing that biblical Cush (a reference sometimes translated as Ethiopia) is defined in the Unger Bible Dictionary as a landmass south of Egypt. Today this will be Sudan and Somalia.

Grant Jeffrey chose one of the most fundamentalist Muslim nations as a response to find non-Muslim nations in end-times. David Reagan of the Lion and Lamb Ministries with frustration pointed to Mystery Babylon14 ignoring that the crucial word in that question is “literal”. If Babylon is a response to cite any literal reference for a non-Muslim nation that God destroys, this would still support my view— Mystery Babylon is an allegoric reference.

 

CHALLENGE 3: In every portrayal of Christ’s return to the earth, is He not fighting a nation that today is Muslim?

The significance of this question is as follows —scholars are unanimous, that Christ’s second coming must happen after Antichrist appears on the scene. Christ’s mission will be to destroy Antichrist and establish His Millennium kingdom. The European Union model has the Muslim hordes destroyed before the Tribulation period. Yet the text shows that Messiah Himself deals with Muslim nations.

The next prophecy conference you attend ask, “Is Jesus on earth on the Day of the Lord?” Ezekiel tells us of that day, “For the day is near, even the Day of the Lord is near” (Ezekiel 30:3). Yet this is when “Cush and Phut, Lydia [Turkey] and all Arabia, Libya and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt” (Ezekiel 30:5). Other prophesies show these nations are cast into Hell, including Asshur – “Iraq – Syria”, (Ezekiel 32:22-23) Elam – “Iran” (Ezekiel 32:24-25) Meshech & Tubal “Asia minor—Turkey” (Ezekiel 32:26) – Edom – “Arabia” (Ezekiel 32:29). These nations are punished for striking terror against Israel and the believers (Ezekiel 32:22-24 & 27).

Perhaps sharing a few from the volume of hundreds of prophecies of Jesus’ wars during the Great Tribulation can shed more light on the matter: “See Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them” (Isaiah 19). Does this remind you of the song “behold He comes riding on the clouds”? Yet rarely are we told that Jesus here is fighting Egypt—a Muslim nation.

Even in Christ’s judgment of the nations (Joel 3) He is fighting Muslim entities. “Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon [Lebanon] and all you regions of Philistia [Gaza]” (Joel 3:4) It couldn’t be more clear! It was as if Jesus Himself was speaking directly to Hezbollah (Tyre and Sidon) and Hamas (Philistia), challenging them regarding their bloodlust against the Jewish people. Their fight against Israel is in reality a declaration of war on the King Himself.

In Isaiah 25:9-10 at the time of the Lord’s return, we have Christ fighting Moab “And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under Him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.” (Isaiah 25:9-10).

Even in Isaiah 63, scholars unanimously agree that He fights Edom (Arabia).
Are the Muslim nations in prophecy destroyed prior to the Christ’s coming? Will the Antichrist then establish his European rule? Can anyone find a verse in the Bible in which Christ fights and nations are literally mentioned which are not Muslim?

This is why many who exclusively see Europe as Antichrist insist on removing Islam from the scene prior to the coming of Christ. Since the Muslims still exist on earth upon the Lord’s return fighting against Him, their whole premise of an exclusively European Antichrist falls apart.

 

REFERENCES
1 Lamplighter Newsletter, David Reagan, January 2009 edition.
2 The Great Heresies, chapter 4 March, 1936, page 127-128
3 Hosiah Litch, The Three Woe Trumpets, Fall of The Ottoman Empire, August 11, 1840
4 Divine Institutes, 7:17
5 Paul Alvarus, Memoriale sanctorum 2.4
6 Martin Luther, Tischreden, Weimer ed., 1, No. 330
7 Calvin On Islam Revelation Prof. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee, Lamp Trimmers El Paso, 2000
8 Jonathan Edwards, The Fall of Antichrist, Part VII, page 395, New York, Published by S. Converse 1829
9 Jonathan Edwards, The Fall of Antichrist, Part VII, page 399, New York, Published by S. Converse 1829
10 The Coming Prince, Page 273
11 Froom: op. cit., II pp. 323f, 325f, 331, 340f, 412f, 458 & 518f and also III pp. 40f, 74f, 125-31, 149, 183, 240f, &352f.
12 M. Henry: A Commentary on the Holy Bible, with Practical Remarks andObservations, London: Marshall Bros. Ltd., n.d., IV:1270f.
13 Fruchtenbaum, Footsteps of the Messiah, page 36
14 Lamplighter Newsletter, David Reagan, January 2009 edition.

 

 

 

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  • http://twitter.com/BlissTabitha Tabitha Bliss

    Anyone wanting to see some awesome facts concerning the “Beast” should check out the BeholdTheBeast website. To be amazed click on the “mathematical precision of prophecy” there to see where God had foretold everything to the exact year. To get into real detail there on these divine mathematics you can see the (updated) book there for free under “The false prophet” link. The book even shows us America in prophecy. Yes, it’s scriptural & pretty amazing as scripture included our massive abortion issue in our description.
    Also at the site worth seeing is some fantastic graphics taken from the Iron dome’s blueprints (aka: The abomination of desolation) that includes a bit of an ‘inside joke’ from our Father & gives some divine insight to God’s awesome sense of humor. Love it!
    The guy that wrote The False Prophet above has further materials at his own website – FishHouseMinistries. I’d recommend the new Daniel & Revelation study series. All of his teachings are fantastic. I’ve learned that as long as we can get beyond the teachings of Men (aka denominational teachings) & simply let the word of God & the facts speak, it’s incredible to see what he will show us.
    God Bless. :)

    • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

      Thanks for the suggestion Tabitha. I’ve bookmarked the website: BeholdTheBeast.com for further reading when I’ve time…

      Oh, and BTW, welcome to the Scoop! :-)

    • sjmom

      Thanks for the website and I totally agree we must get beyond the denominational and into the glorious.

      God Bless you also :)

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/KYTC7EGQASGOTQYPY2KPC4XCZY Don

      Thanks for posting. It is always comforting to know there are sites available for perusing for reinforcement or just comparative opinion. What I can never undrerstand how mortal man can, in his infinite wisdom, actually think that man is the ultimate source of empirical knowledge. Even Einstein, who did not believe in a personal God, felt it was foolish for mankind to deny the existence of a supreme being. His quote, “Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind” defined his view adequately.

  • colliemum

    I can’t help but wonder if the contemporary prophecy interpretations, who still seen the Antichrist coming from Europe are subconsciously avoiding the question of the role of islam.
    Perhaps they’ve been conditioned by the prevailing PC attitude to see islam as religion of p., and are fearful of being labelled ‘islamophobic’, which is a huge no-no if one lives in academia …

    • las1

      “are subconsciously avoiding the question of the role of islam. “

      Interesting comment… but they are wedded to the eurocentric view of eschatology. That eurocentric view plus a pre-trib “rapture” I’ve never found convincing… not from scripture anyway.

      • badbadlibs

        Matthew 24 and how there could be a pre-trib view after that does not compute in this mind.
        God created common sense. For that alone it’s not a stretch to believe that islam and the antichrist are connected.
        The stage was set with Ishmael. There would be no islam otherwise.

    • sjmom

      As I wrote Mum why can’t he be both? The Roman Empire covered the Middle East, yet today there are many Muslims in Europe. There are so many possible scenarios and we’ll find out soon enough. Quite honestly, I expect to be raptured outta here before the Anti Christ comes to power but I also think the Lord will tell any of us who are interested at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb who he is because for centuries Christians have wondered, argued, pondered, written and spoken of these things. One thing I do know whoever the Anti Christ is his end is in the Lake of Fire with his master Satan. Now that is good news bless the Lord!

      PS. Have I wished you a Happy New Year? My best to you and your family.

      • colliemum

        Happy New Year to you, sjmom!

        Yes, I also think the Lord will reveal the Anti-Christ to all who believe in Him, and who have done their best to stand firm in Faith, praying and worshipping Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
        The thing is though – we won’t know until it happens, and many of us may well have departed before this occurs.
        This is another of the points we’ve been told about: we will not know, but we must be prepared, like the prudent virgins, for His coming, as a thief in the night.
        For me, it always comes back to Ephesians 6,13 …

  • 1endtimes2020

    People don’t realize how the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, will soon play an important role to bring “peace, for a time”. She made a request almost 100 years ago for the Catholic Church to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart. This request was made just prior to Russia becoming Communist, and the consecration would allow Her to convert Russia and prevent Russia from spreading its errors throughout the world.
    She said to Sister Lucy, one of the three shepherd children at Fatima, Potugal, that the consecration would be late, but would happen. In the meantime, the Church would be prosecuted and the Pope will have much to suffer. The consecration has not been made.
    In the early 1960s, the Catholic Church became liberal, against all the warnings of previous Popes, over the centuries, that it would compromise the Church. Since then, the Vatican has been infiltrated by its enemies, determined to destroy it from within.(Freemasons plan of 200 years ago) see http://www.fatima.org and check out the DVD “Heavens Key to Peace”.
    You’ll see the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by 70,000 people from all over Europe, mostly unbelievers, ready to scoff at a miracle that didn’t happen. Well, the miracle did happen. It had been raining for three days and you can see the expressions on the faces of people as they look up. After the miracle, everything was dry. The people’s clothes, the land, and every leaf on the trees. For those who are not used to hearing about miracles, they do happen, even after the Bible has been written. God has given Mary a special role for the end times.

    • Rshill7

      Your post has zero references to Christ and zero references to Bible scriptures. The site you refer to doesn’t seem to have a single Bible verse on it either. I saw the word Jesus once after clicking all around it.

      What the heck is this Catholic preoccupation with Mary? Good grief. Are there any end time prophecies in the Bible about Mary? I can’t think of any. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary, to venerate Mary to such a ridiculous degree or to pray anything called a Rosary to Mary.

      Are you going to meet Mary in the air at the Rapture? Is Mary going to return for and then with all “her” saints? Will Mary forgive your sins? Have you any salvation at all through Mary? No, no, no, and no.

      If Mary has anything at all to do with endtimes it might be regarding how deluded those who worship her have been, how wrong the Catholic Church has been for two millennia. Close your catechism book and toss your beads. They are worthless. Instead, try opening the Bible and do some reading from that, or continue worshiping Mary, any number of Priests, Popes, Cardinals and Bishops. Ridiculous traditions of men not supported at all by Bible scripture. The rest of us will pray to Christ, who is God in the flesh.

      “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6 NIV) (Nothing whatsoever about Mary.)

      The Lord’s prayer begins with “Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name…” (Nothing whatsoever about Mary.)

      Your post goes a long way to illustrating that large groups of people will believe and worship almost anything but the truth, and the Christ. Mary is not the Messiah. Mary is not Christ. Christ is Christ.

      • sarahsupporter

        The Catholic Church is based on two things: the Bible (Scripture) and Tradition. In the Tradition part, we honor Mary, we do not worship her. We ask her help in keeping us holy, and to bring us closer to her Son, Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God. So no, you won’t find anything about worshiping Mary in the Bible because it is not there and does not belong there. Remember, it was Catholic monks who transcribed the Bible in the early centuries to begin with. Very laborious work indeed.

        • Rshill7

          You’re darn right Mary doesn’t belong there. Tradition avails you nothing. You pray to her but don’t worship her? How does that work? Who else do you pray to…all manner of saints? Mary keeps you holy and brings you closer to Jesus? No she does not.

          Catholic monks did not transcribe the Old Testament. That’s part of the Bible. Scribes did that. Jesus quoted several times from the Old Testament before there was any such thing as a Catholic Church.

          I suggest you read an actual Bible then nail about 95 thesis to your own door.

          • las1

            Prepare to bang your head against a brick wall my friend.

            Here’s a really good debate between James White and Robert Fastiggi. It’s unbelievably stunning how these Mary worshippers fall into a trance and swoon trying to defend the absolutely indefensible. It’s time to call it like it is… a cult.

            A while back I had no particular axe to grind with Romanism and assumed it was just another denomination (afterall my father was RC what could be so bad?)… until I looked at their dogmas and doctrines and their treadmill of sacraments. I was shocked!

            I’t laughable how Roman Catholics blather on about 22,000 plus “protestant” demoninations who are supposedly divided in their theology, while Romanism is united in its heresy.


            Rshill… if you don’t have time to view this (it’s 1hr25min), bookmark it for a lazy afternoon. I’ve come to learn that RC is a religion unto itself and will keep one’s head swimming with endless dogmas and heresies.

            Oh and P.S. while Romanism anathematizes “protestants”, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church is perfectly fine with Islam as a way for salvation since it’s supposedly “Abrahamic”.

            CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

            In the “first place” no less!

            • badbadlibs

              The CCC is not alone in their pronouncement:

              • las1

                This is a fair theological discussion point. But it would be pretty thin gruel on which to base one’s salvation especially if one has heard the gospel, and considering that Islam is provably an anti-Christ system which can be proven from their own Sunna and from Paul’s writings to Timothy.

                • badbadlibs

                  For men like these, whose called paths have given them great audiences and whose words are believed, there will be much to answer for.

                • las1

                  Thanks badbad… it’s not often I appeal to other believers that they will have much to answer for. Occasionally I have done it regarding jihadists and the like.

                  I do believe Romanism is a heresy, but I also know that if by some glitch of bad parenting I was born a RC, I too could be ensnared as well, or even a Muslim… how terrible would that be. I love my Catholic friends and the few Catholic family members still living… and I can be forceful here with my Catholic opponents, but I know that we are fiercely loved by our God, so I do not know at which point someone forfeits that Love and has to face the consequences. But I believe that being Born Again is scriptural for a reason. It seals us with His Spirit. And we can be wrong on many things, but He will never leave us or forsake us because we are sealed and we are His.

                • colliemum

                  Yes, we are His – paid for by His blood.

            • 1endtimes2020

              Mohammed didn’t want to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. There can be no sin in heaven. Humans are not worthy enough to erase their sins. It takes a god, unblemished by sin, to do that. That ‘god’ was Jesus Christ, son of the Father and part of the Trinity, including the Holy Spirit. The Trinity makes perfect sense.
              Jesus died for our sins and is the saviour of souls to those who believe it, and obey the Ten Commandments. Jesus said they are all in one commandment of Love each other.
              Mohammed was not a saviour. He didn’t die for his followers. He said the angel Gabriel gave him a message from God, but the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary 750 years before. Mary accepted to become the mother of Jesus. She has a special place in the heart of Jesus. He allows her to bring appeals to Him and to inspire people to worship her son. She does not want to be worshipped.
              Mohammed had many wives, including a 9 year old girl–his favorite.
              Jesus told His followers to be peaceful, and help others. He never threatened anyone with death if they chose not to believe. He did say, however, that anyone who would not accept Him as saviour, could not enter heaven. He is the Creator of the Universe, and He sets His own rules.
              Mohammed made it clear that if anyone didn’t convert to his ‘religion’ the real cult of this topic, they would have to be put to death.
              If Christ had said that, who would have followed Him. Intimidation and death was Mohammed’s game, and even the slightest criticism meant death. We still see it all like that today. Christians are being murdered every week, but Christians are not killing Muslims.
              As far as I am concerned, Islam is a product of Satan, who always tries to copy Christ to prevent as many new followers of Christ as possible.
              Why do Muslims come to the West? To take over after 400 years of development?
              There’s no way Muslim countries would allow Christian television as Muslims have here.
              Christians can’t even wear a cross there. When Talibans do military exercises they shoot at a cross. Hardly an act of tolerance.
              The Crusades didn’t come about for no reason. Muslims should stay out of countries they don’t like, and we shouldn’t be wasting our blood and treasure to install Sharia law, as we did in Iraq, while Muslims we trained as policemen and army kill our soldiers
              Let’s face it. Muslims do not want peace with Christians, Jews, or even seculars. Heck, they don’t even want peace with certain other muslims.
              When the West became obsessed with grave sins, including 50 million abortions, sodomy, pornography and illegal drugs, we opened the door to our enemies, and we did it more than just the story of the Trojan Horse at the gate. Immigration is just another word for invasion. One day, they will strike against us, and all those scoffers who defend them will realize who lived among them, but it will be too late.

              • Rshill7

                Well then…you can certainly dish it out…but you can’t take it?

                By the way, Las did not need your diatribe there, your church does. Your church is the one that says Islam is one way to heaven, not Las. Las was simply pointing out another doctrinal heresy regarding the Catholic Church.

                Your post above should be directed there, at your own church. Not at him.

                Thanks for the vivid lesson in “do as I say, not as I do”.

                Just as you point out the problems with Islam, all I have done in this thread is point out the problems with Catholicism and it’s two millennia of Papists.

                • 1endtimes2020

                  The Catholic Curch says Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. I don’t know where you get your false information, but you sure are one mixed up person.
                  You believe what you want, and I’ll do the same.
                  There’s no need for more correspondance between us.

              • las1

                Can’t disagree much with what you have said, except for your assertions about Mary. Sure Mary does not want to be worshiped. No argument from me there. But the Roman conception of Mary is entirely different to a New Testament conception. And Mary worship is NOT anathematized nor discouraged by Rome because it’s deeply embedded through the teachings of St. Alphonsus de Liguori and pronouncements of various Popes and the special devotion to Mary in the CCC. Sorry… it is what it is.

                And Rome has serious issues when making pronouncements on the Palestinian issue and it’s support of a two state solution.

                • 1endtimes2020

                  Mary is only doing the work of God. Just as we will when we are the children of God in heaven.She has a special place in the Holy Family, which is just.
                  As for the two state issue, I agree the church is wrong, but that is not dogma.
                  I have said before, the Catholic church liberalized in the early 1960s, against all the previous Popes warnings. Vatican 2 came about because it was infiltrated by its enemies. Before Pope Benedict was elected, the Vatican spokesman told CNN “people have no idea of the struggle that is going on inside the Vatican”.
                  I’m sure the vast majority of Catholics would not want a two state situation, as you put it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

            No we do not pray to her, we ask her to PRAY FOR US, as you would ask any family member or friend to pray for you.

            You think the Saints are in heaven sitting on their hands as the world goes by? Think again, they are very involved in the war for souls.

            And JESUS founded the Catholic Church with “What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” and the Catholic Church put together the Bible in the Council of Nicaea in 325.

            Oh, and interestingly, Luther, hero and poster boy of the protestant revolt, cut 7 books out of the old testament and was going to cut Revelation and a few other new testament books until his friends told him to put down the box cutters.

            Learn your facts before you mindlessly bash the Mother Church.

            • Rshill7

              Mindlessly bash? Know my facts? You might consider learning some facts Mr. Extrabiblical BS-er. Neither you nor I need a go-between. Is the Catholic Church like a labor union or something? When I pray, I pray directly to Christ, aka, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I would never, ever, ever, consider praying to Mary.

              I “think” what the Bible says John. At every instance where your Catholic teaching stands in contrast to Biblical teaching, your church is wrong and the Bible is right. You have a problem with that I see. If so, the problem is yours and your church’s, not mine. You are free to think and believe whatever you want to. If you feel as if your church has been bashed, so be it. What I am doing though is strenuously disagreeing with it. I don’t have to bash it. It bashes itself.

              “Mother Church” indeed. Worshiping the Mother. What a stupid waste of time. Nice Catholic invention. No thanks. Go burn some more folks at the stake, but first ask Mary if it’s OK. Then ask Mary to ask a priest to forgive you of your sins.

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                No bible quotes for me to refute? Just mindlessly bashing the Church for the sake of bashing it. What a poor hate filled creature you are.

                IF you actually look at what the early Christians believed and how they treated Mary, they’d look PRETTY Catholic wouldn’t you say?

                http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_in_the_early_church.php

                Oh and asking the Saints and each other to pray for us DOES do us merit as can be seen in Revelations, Romans, and Timothy.

                “I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,” ~1 timothy 2:1-5

                “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.” ~Revelations 5:8.

                I urge you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. 31 Pray that I may be kept safe from the unbelievers in Judea and that the contribution I take to Jerusalem may be favorably received by the Lord’s people there, 32 so that I may come to you with joy, by God’s will, and in your company be refreshed. ~Romans 15:30-32

                If you want to ignore the saints thats perfectly fine. but i do not think it’d be wise to overly bash his MOTHER.

                • sarahsupporter

                  Your last paragraph is a great point…..if you have a friend that you love (Jesus for example) would you bash that friend’s mother???? Why such hatred for the mother of Jesus?

                • Rshill7

                  Hatred? Who has hated anyone here? I haven’t. What a bunch of Catholic sycophants you brainwashed people are. It’s called Biblical disagreement. Why can’t you read the Word itself? Are you functionally illiterate or something?

                  If I ever say, I hate so, and so, then hate will be the right word. Until then, your assertions of hate are simply lies. Some folks like lies. I do not.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  “Hatred? Who has hated anyone here? I haven’t. What a bunch of Catholic SYCOPHANTS you BRAINWASHED people are.”

                  Hate what hate? No hate here people! move along move along…

                • 1endtimes2020

                  Oh we read the word, alright. All of it. You can stop your insults with your own brand of brainwashing. It’s hardly the Christian thing to do. Why are you so angry.
                  Can you not disagree and respect other? It says a lot about you.

                • Rshill7

                  Disagreement and anger are two different words with two different definitions. It appears you have ignored much of the Bible as well as any number of English dictionaries.

                  I have also not disrespected anyone here. I suppose that if there were some Islamic folks in here though, they would feel justifiably disrespected by you, with your long post about it towards the top of the page. It’s OK to disagree with them but not OK to disagree with Catholics?

                  Got it. What a great teacher you are. You could name the crash course you’ve taught here: “hypocrisy”.

                • las1

                  If someone were to worship St. Paul and someone else were to criticize such worship, it would hardly be Paul bashing, now would it?

                  Likewise, condemning Mary worship is also not bashing Mary. It’s correcting heretical doctrine.

                  Your argument is called “erecting a straw man”.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  Like we catholics have said TIME and TIME and TIME again, WE DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAINTS!!!!!

                  What do we have to do to get that ONE SIMPLE LITTLE FACT in your minds!

                  We PETITION them to pray FOR US just like you would ask your friends/family members to pray for you. Asking the saints to pray for us is just asking for some pros to help in our Prayers to God.

                  Geeeeees -_-

                • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

                  Why do you ask dead people to pray for you? There are plenty of “pros” who are alive to pray for you. Jesus says when two or more are gathered. We can’t gather with the dead.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  And i ask them to pray for me too! The Saints have the added advantage of being with G-d as we speak, being without sin now, and can pray more purely for our intentions. And we don’t consider them DEAD, they’re not in retirement, they’re are very much alive in Heaven and involved in the war for Souls, once you join the war you never stop fighting.

                • colliemum

                  Very well said, ABiC!

                • las1

                  Liquori… “The Holy Church commands a worship peculiar to Mary” “Many things are asked from God, and are not granted, they are asked from Mary, and are obtained, “for “She is even Queen of Hell, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils” Of course LIquori says Mary defeated hell (she didn’t, Jesus did)… but Queen of Hell… Really!

                  Shocking, I know, but it’s from The Glories of Mary by the Catholic Church Doctor Alphonsus Maria di Liquori, the 18 Century Catholic Theologian who cemented and formed modern Mariology in the Church.

                  Most Catholics simply do not know what their Magesterium is pronouncing. Who could blame them? It’ll take you a year alone to get through the CCC.

                • 1endtimes2020

                  Let’s save our breath Sarah. When people don’t want to learn, there’s some selfish reason behind it.

                • sarahsupporter

                  How many times does it need to be said that we do not worship Mary or the Saints?? Now I am starting to feel like I am dealing with Sarah Palin haters when they keep insisting that Sarah said she could see Alaska from her house. You could tell them a thousand times that Sarah said she didn’t say that but they just keep on saying it over and over and over.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  I know, it is the MOST. ANNOYING. THING. EVEEEEER. -_-

                • Rshill7

                  Well, you used some verses this time, but they do not say pray to Mary or any saints. I’m wondering what the point was for even including them. They do not support your Catholic assertions. Thanks for playing though. Maybe you are imagining some words that aren’t there. Good luck with that.

                  What you think is “wise”, I think is foolish, so what you think really doesn’t bother me one whit. I’ll just shake my head at your ignorance and your fanciful, extrabiblical, man-made religion.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  They PROVE our assertions that it is ok and GOOD to ask other to pray for US. And that’s all we do with the saints, we just petition them, pros in the way of God and experts at Prayer, to pray for us.

                  There is NOTHING in the bible that says we can’t ask someone to pray for us especially nothing about asking for some professional help from those who see Him face to Face.

                  And duck Rshill7, the Bible, without which Protestantism has nothing to stand on, comes from US.

                  If we’re a man made religion what does that make you?

                • Rshill7

                  I’m not understanding your use of the word “duck”.

                  Protestantism is based on the Bible, right. That makes us a Bible-based religion. The Bible is all we stand on. If any so-called Protestant religion also adheres to anti or extra-biblical schtuff, then they are wrong too. I don’t care what the religion calls itself.

                  You interpret “others” as saints and Mary? Why? Where’s any basis for that?

                  By the way, there is nothing in the Bible that says you can’t use a treble hook and a downrigger to catch a guppie either. It does warn strongly against necromancy, which is what you practice.

                  I wish you Mary-speed and Pope-speed with your religion. I will continue to place ALL my trust in Christ. I will also approach Him directly with my prayers. I do not need a Catholic religion union of stewards to be my go between or to negotiate on my behalf.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  Yeah the Bible is all that you stand on but without a “man made religion” like us there would be no bible for you to stand on -_-

                  And you don’t consider the Saints and Mary to be people? Boy the situation when you enter the pearly gates is going to be awkward….

                • las1

                  I mistakenly gave a “like” to our friend John. I find his arguments becoming less coherent, but I still read them anyway.

                • 1endtimes2020

                  Don’t forget the Holy Spirit to pray to. Jesus said, just prior to His resurrection, ‘i must go to the Father, and when I go to the Father I will send the Helper” We can pray to the Trinity, and we can also ask all of God’s children, the saints, to pray for us. One day, if you make it to Heaven, and I wish it for you with all my heart, you, also, will be a child of God. He promised that, What a gift.

                • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

                  The Bible comes from God.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  Yes, but it was through the Catholic Church that the books was put together at the Council of Neciea in 325. (7 books of which were removed by Luther)

                • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

                  I couldn’t reply below- It was the Holy Spirit putting the Books together. The Bible contains everything we need to know about Christ. It has been the Holy Spirit who has preserved the Word of God.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  Indeed all very true, but the Holy Spirit acted through the Catholic Church, through the Council of Neciea. Please remember that before bashing us Catholics as a man made fake religion. -_-

                • las1

                  The Council of Nicea was held in present day Turkey. The Roman Bishop didn’t even attend. The books compiled were those books already used and widely accepted. The council was not even held at the behest of the Roman Bishop but by Constantine, and the Council upheld the idea of all Sees having equal position according the Nicea’s Canon 6. There were four major Sees, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem. Rome was simply one among equals. When the claims of Rome are exposed, a very different picture emerges… but Rome uses the fog of history and Roman pronouncements after the 5th century to lay their claims.

                • Godisright

                  Questions : for John
                  1. How does a priest figure the number of Hail Marys to subscribe a transgressor?
                  2. Is your penitence the purchase price of the forgiveness you receive?
                  3. By what authority does a priest absolve another man/woman?
                  4. To Whom does the Pope confess his sin?
                  5. What do you have to do to get into Heaven? Seems rather difficult and confusing.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  1. Depends on each circumstance, each situation is different and a good number of the time you have to do something more, it’s up to the priest.

                  2.The Sacrament of Penance remits the eternal punishment due to sin, but it does not always remit the temporal punishment which God requires as satisfaction for our sins. And here’s where it get’s tricky, to comepletely remove all temporal punishment and “paid the last penny.” (~Matthew 5:26) this is where indulgences come in and to that i refer you to an article that can explain it far better than i can. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences

                  3. “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”~John 20:23

                  4. To another ordinary Priest, usually a Jesuit from what i hear.

                  5. There is no absolute Guarantee that someone will make it into heaven, there is no absolute guarantee someone will go to hell, for only God knows the heart and he alone will judge. Anyways Salvation is a journey, but the easiest, surest way is through the Church which Jesus founded and to follow her Teachings. Such as frequently going to confessions to keep our soul as clean as possible and help to remove ourselves from even the desire to sin, frequently going to receive of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, and working for bring other souls on the path to Salvation. Do these things and while Salvation is not guarantee, you’ll have a head start.

                • Godisright

                  1.I do not see in scripture where this applies or is instructed. What happens if the priest does not give the correct number of recitations etc to the perpetrator? Who takes the hit for that? Or is the priest absolved of any error? Very confusing.
                  2. As I read the Bible, I see that Jesus came to pay the penalty of sin once and for all. Hebrews 10: 1-23. I read your article on indulgences and it says the Catholic Church is the gateway to reconciliation. This is not found in scripture. Matt. 5:26 in context talks about our transgression of the law eg: the sin of adultery is not qualified in the act only, but even in the thought.
                  3. This passage talks about the forgiveness of our fellow brother -on the horizontal level.
                  Romans 3:23-28 describes our redemption through Jesus Christ and the forgiveness He provides. God talks about us being adopted into His family. If you adopted a child and the court said that you now have the authority and responsibility to raise that child, with that child knowing that, why would he go to any other authority to ask for something that is rightly his – through you?
                  4.They say it is a Franciscan priest who is authorized by the Pope himself. where does the Pope get his authority do do this. They say that a lay person cannot do this. James 5:16 doesn’t say anything about hierarchy.
                  5. Wow! to go through all this and still not know where you will spend eternity. I would not waste my time without a promise. You obviously know beyond a doubt that your sins are absolved once you complete everything that is required. Who promised that to you? Rom 10:10-13. Read Eph. 2, it summarizes how we get to be His children. The Greek word for salvation is SOTERIA – which means -deliver,health, save and saving. John 10:9,John 3:17, Matt. 20:28,Acts 4:12.
                  John 3:36- says that “He that believes has everlasting LIFE”, not death.
                  Red Hebrews 11 – In a nutshell, FAITH is our assurance of eternity with God. What we acquire with the faith God has given each man is our responsibility.

                • sjmom

                  John,

                  As a practicing life long Catholic I must heartily disagree with your take on Scripture because you’re coming from a place of tradition and Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes for the same. Tradition is just that and is of men. Every denomination has it and this is not what God wants. Read John 17 where Jesus prays the Father in verse 21 “that they all may be one”.

                  I don’t know what some are going to do when they get to Heaven and see those they disagreed with in the earth because there won’t be any denominations there and the Lord is not going to allow any division in His Presence. Jesus told us believe on Him and love one another. It’s all about Love who is God who is Love (1John 4) Amen.

                • las1

                  sjmom… of course you do realize that you could be a lapsed Catholic, or at the very worst… a “bad” Catholic. But your statement is pretty darn scriptural… imho.

                  Oh and a p.s. You are abolutely correct, every church has a tradition… but the Roman Church places their tradition as equal (in practicality above) scripture. That makes Roman tradition quite different to other traditions.

                • sjmom

                  I pray what I am is a disciple of Jesus.

                • las1

                  That’s true there sjmom I pray that I become more a disciple with you with every passing day… but doctrine does matter. It very often can mean the difference between life and death, and when Catholic 18thC teaching on the position of Mary usurps the position of Christ himself, then it’s time to take notice.

                  I strongly encourage you to watch this debate. This debate is the best of what Rome has to offer, and the best of what orthodox/protestant Christianity has to offer.

                  Fastiggi is the RC guy.. and he is a very fine and good hearted man, I may add… and White is his opponent, an exacting and scripture based man, but very respectful as well. There is no yelling or screaming or pounding of fists.

                  I’m sorry it’s a bit long (and a bit old) but truth of course never has a “best by” date.

                • colliemum

                  Virtual hugs to you, sjmom – because being or becoming a disciple of Jesus is very hard work, lifelong work, but trying hard is the only way I know of, to get there in the end.

                  And as you wrote above: it is all about love, His love which is beyond understanding, and of which we may hope to grasp a little bit – not to keep for ourselves, but to give to others, whoever they are, wherever they are.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  “I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you” ~ 1 Corinthians 11:2

                  “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours”~ 2 Thess 2:15

                  “And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.” ~2 Timothy 2:2

                  You were saying something about Jesus rebuking Tradition? ;)

                  Yes it’s about love, but it’s also about truth.

                • las1

                  Ah yes… those traditions… what exactly are those sacred traditions… those before the fourth century that Rome has yet to nail down? That’s the rub isn’t’ it?

                  Of course if you believe the Romish concept of “progressive revelation” then the traditions of Rome can be anything they pronounce as existing over the last seventeen hundred years, even if it was only pronounced and declared dogma at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

                  This is precisely the problem Rome has. Declaring things never even dreamed of by early Christians, not even as heresies, yet Rome comes along centuries later and says… “There!… it was always considered tradition in the One True Church”.

                  The only problem is… there is no “there” there. But authentic Christianity can pay for Rome’s declarations ever after.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  OK, name ONE Catholic doctrine that has changed from one thing, to another via official teaching proclamation of the Pope/council.

                  And if you’re going to shout “MARY WORSHIP!!!” Forget it, Worship of Mary merits excommunication, always has been always will be. You saying otherwise is throwing your own shit for the sake of throwing your own shit.

                  The Church teaching on Mary is the same as the early Fathers of the Church. http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_in_the_early_church.php

                  Point to something more original and not so widely disproven already.

                • las1

                  Since I can’t reply because of Disqus, I will reply here.

                  Yikes there John! I didn’t know I was into poo flinging. Really!

                  Let’s stay on topic: Mary worship and excommunication! I hardly think so. The only excommunication I know is six Nuns in Quebec, one who believed she was the reincarnation of Mary. That’s as close as it gets. They were “excommunicated” for illegal ordinations, not devotion to Mary.

                  Point to something more original and not so widely disproven already. Ok… her it goes my friend:

                  This is a very partial list. Yes… these are official doctrinal, dogmatic changes… and it all falls under “progressive or ongoing Catholic Revelation… I particularly like the Great Divorce forcing celebacy… where priests had to divorce their wives or leave the clergy:

                  Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998

                  Celibacy of Priesthood (The Great Divorce) 1079

                  Rosary 1090

                  Inquisition 1184

                  Indulgences 1190

                  Transubstantiation dogma begun 1215

                  Bible forbidden to laymen 1229

                  Forbidding the Cup to Laymen 1414

                  Purgatory 1439

                  The list is longer… but you get the idea.

                  Rome will have you spinning till your head flies off. And of course they will say this was all just established practice only formalized as dogma along the way. So all the clergy was celibate until the 12th C… sure!

                  Denial about Rome is just not a pretty thing.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  The way you keep on the Mary and Saint worship crap… is like throwing crap! lol.

                  Anyways what you have wrote are not changing official doctrines, it’s either the adding of a new one or are disciplines that are not theological truths that can be changed. lol

                  Fasting is a discipline, not theological doctrine and can be changed.

                  Celibacy: Actually that is a discipline for the Latin Rite as a vow you have to take in order to become a Priest in the Latin rite. (although there are exceptions, usually for protestant converts) There are other parts breaches of the Church such as Eastern Rite Catholics for whom it is the NORM. Not theological doctrine. The reason it seems that way is because the Latin Rite is the Dominate Rite of the Church and the model of celibate priest proved most fruitful in the salvation of souls.

                  Rosary, not doctrinal, merely an excellent discipline. I highly recommended it. It hasn’t changed any official doctrine.

                  Inquisition isn’t a doctrine it is an organization that finds out whether members are following doctrine. Long subject so i’ll recommend you to an Excellent video explaining what exactly it was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EderfKDOM

                  Indulgences are as old as the Church itself but if you’re refering to the buying of indulgences, it wasn’t officially approved and was addressed at Trent. http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/indulgences.php

                  Transubstantiation, i doubt there was a Christian up to 500 A.D. that DIDN’T believe in the presence of the Christ in the Eucharist. http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

                  Forbidden bible reading…. where’d you get that crap? http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/did_the_catholic_church_forbid_bible_reading.php

                  Forbidding Cup to laity? I think this falls under discipline because both the Blood and the Body are equally present in both forms, and the restriction most likely had to do with helping to prevent accidents, as it is easier on the priest at communion. So the laity didn’t get denied the presence of Christ,

                  Purgatory has ALWAYS been a doctrine of the Church http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

                  Hope that covers it!

                • sjmom

                  John, I could quote you Scripture all day but I will only use one verse from James. “For where envying and strife, there is confusion and every evil work.” James 3:16 and yes it is from the King James Version. Any form of strife including division is Satanic. Stay in love, you don’t have to agree, just love.

                  There is no truth without love because GOD IS BOTH TRUTH AND LOVE! :)

                  PS. research Google on John Paul II’s reprieve of Martin Luther and remember Jesus is returning for a “glorious church”.

                • las1

                  See my list below of ongoing revelation of the Catholic Church… your last post to me was limited by disqus, so I have to respond below here. Please keep your language civil my friend.

                • las1

                  Those are all doctrines or practices in the RC Church John. And yes, the Inquisition is based on Catholic supremacy of the Papacy. The Papal Supremacist Magisterium is based in Catholic Doctrine. It’s just not possible to side step the doctrine of Papal Infallibility behind all the historical mutations of the Inquisitions. It’s uncomfortable for Catholics to be confronted with the Inquistion, that’s why dismissive Catholics like Michael Voris try to conflate burning at the stake with total religious culture, a practice of good people against the bad. I was stunned that he quoted a scholar to make that argument.

                  It’s funny how the inquisitions just suddenly appeared on the scene, but was never practiced one thousand years before in all of Christendom. And Michael Coren is just the new breed of dismissive Catholic to team up with Voris to explain the inquisition away. It’s interesting that Coren calls blasphemers criminals who had to be defended. Now why is that? It would take more time to unpack the specious explaining away of these two, but the rush to defend the Church is mind boggling.

                  All these examples, and many more, have tenuous or little to no support in the scriptures… especially Celibacy for clergy. You really couldn’t answer that one, now could you. I’ll use your favourite word “crap” when you hide behind the “Latin Rite”. It’s hardly an option, now is it? For hundreds of years the clergy married, then suddenly it’s forbidden.

                  And you proved the Catholic pretension of “progressive revelation” which just so conveniently confirms the Catholic fiction that these heresies, like Purgatory “have ALWAYS been a “doctrine of the Church”. Which church? Certainly not the Church of Christ.

                  You really would be much happier if you could just defend the Gospel and scripture, but unfortunately you have the baggage of Romanism to carry on your back which contradicts the scripture you are supposed to uphold. What a weight!

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  What i asked for was for a particular example of a contradiction of dogma from one infallible belief to another and you have not brought up one.

                  I”m glad you actually watch my stuff, but if you cared to actually LOOKED IT UP instead of just listening to you’re own propaganda sources, the Inquisition was alot better than the regular law of the time. You mistakenly believe that when the inquisition was active, if you sneeze in the wrong direction you’d be in “burning at the stakes” when in fact, recent studies indicate that at most there were only a few thousand capital sentences carried out for heresy in Spain, and these were over the course of several centuries (current estimates find that about 125 thousand people were put on trial while only 2 thousand were condemned to death, a less than 2% death rate) Does that seem like the Church was out for blood?

                  You seem to skip over the fact that back-in-the-day Church and State were ONE, if you were against the Church, you were a revolutionary. And Spain was just reconquered from the Muslims and there was alot of tension flying between Christians and there was finger pointing against the Converts. The inquisition was formed so that people who were accused of heresy (a crime also against the state considered treasonous) could be brought to a fair court for a fair hearing and nine out of ten times they were released. (it is in fact it is fair to say that much of OUR OWN system has it’s roots in the Inquisition!)It is an Organization dedicated to dealing with internal strife and rebellion against Church Doctrine. It’s not doctrine itself!.

                  And being celibate wasn’t suddenly forbidden, it isn’t forbidden now, the vows were changed for people wanting to become priest in the Latin rite of the Church. But it is also in the Bible that celibacy does take the higher road, to a married life, it allows you to concentrate more on God. i mean, if you have a family of five are you really ready to go on a lifelong mission to convert the savage Indians in the New World? there are reasons why the Latin right with it’s celibate priests are the dominate Rite in the Church instead of the Eastern Rite that encourages marriage among priests :P. (fun fact Also Benedict has created an Anglican ordinate that allows priests to be married, to make it easier for the reunification) Being celebrate in order to become a priest as doctrine is false. It’s just a requiting standard for us in the Latin rite.

                  ” He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God. But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided.” – Cor 7:32

                  i don’t know why you are hung up on this one lol

                  And finally Purgatory has ALWAYS been a part of the Church that CHRIST himself founded, that the early Church fathers fought and died for at the hands of the Emperors http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

                  Purgatory IS Christian belief, and the Church is rooted in Bible as much as you try to deny it! :P

                • las1

                  “heresy (a crime also against the state considered treasonous)” Isn’t it funny that the RCC still can’t take responsibility for their own heresy trials! How dare the state conduct heresy trials! The nerve!

                  A new smiley faced Inquisition. Who knew?

                  Accept it if you will (although I’m sure you won’t) there is a veritable industry in revising the history of the Inquisition by the Catholic Church and their apologists. The Inquisition is now transformed into some benign, gentle, humanitarian work. The CC owes an eternal debt (and possibly a damnable eternal debt) of gratitude to The Spanish Inquisition, by Henry Kamen who got the revisionist ball rolling to extricate the CC from its nasty history. Time will tell. The court of history has a lengthy timetable of inquiry to prove whether the new revisionism proves those nasty Protestants really were liars, and that the Inquisition was all just a myth.

                  Meanwhile… in the real world, sober reflection ensures that taking the word of Catholic “scholars” rummaging through Catholic archives of records left by frenzied officers of the Inquisition should be looked upon with some scepticism. Evidently the scholarly work of Canon Juan Antonio Llorente (1756-1823), Secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-92 (he was Catholic, but of course attacked by the Church), or the American Henry Charles Lea and others is now all suspect. Of course it is!

                  And we are now led to believe that the dirty works, thoughts and deeds of the Inquisitors themselves would be meticulously recorded and logged by their own hand. Logic dictates that they would only record what they were required to legally record. Only immoral or ethically compromised people do this kind of dirty work. Scouring these records, although useful, but solely relying on them is a seriously flawed methodology. equally as flawed as what Rome claims that the Protestants use in their anti-Catholic propaganda.

                  I’m hung up on marriage for priests! Really? Your argument on celibacy for priests is just lame. Your church forbids marriage to its priests… period. And Paul condemns the “forbidding of marriage”. Anglican ordinate! How presumptuous! Anglicans have not yet slithered back to the One True Church.

                  Purgatory is Christian? Try Roman Catholic. Rooted in the Bible? Nice try. Catholic fantasies and myths. Sorry… no other description for it.

              • 1endtimes2020

                The next time you pray, make it for guidance.

                • Rshill7

                  From Mary? No. You go right ahead. Blasphemy does not appeal to me.

            • Sober_Thinking

              I was raised Catholic. I went to Mass (sp?), was baptized (trickle of water on the forehead – not fully emersed), went to Catechism, went through Confirmation, etc. I went to Catholic school from 4th grade all the way up through Sophomore year in High School.

              When I joined the USAF, I met Shane Haley… the “religious guy” in my dorm. He and I formed a friendship through our mutual love of playing guitars. He told me about Jesus and showed me in the Bible about how Jesus came and sacrificed His life for me – how He took my sin and washed it away with His precious blood (because we have all sinned and it must be paid for) and gave me everlasting life as a result – if I would receive Him and by faith accept God’s gracious, merciful gift.

              I remained skeptical and elusive for about 2 years… But Shane persisted (so did the Holy Spirit) and taught me from the Bible (The Word of God) how to be saved… how to accept the Lord as my savior and how I didn’t need a “middle man” (Mary, the saints, a Priest, the Pope, etc.)… how my relationship with Jesus was directly between me and God. I could approach God directly and have a personal relationship with Him.

              This is VERY hard for Catholics to embrace because we have been raised up in tradition and Catholic teachings through our church, our family, our priest, etc. But I tell you, lighting candles for passed away loved ones, praying to Mary or the saints, the Rosary, nuns/priests, Pergatory, etc. – none of that is biblical nor will it get you into Heaven if you don’t accept and know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It’s as simple as the children’s song: “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” Without the faith of a child, we won’t accept the gift from God. And if you have to do ANYTHING other than accept God’s gift through faith… then it’s no longer a gift.

              I mean no disrespect to my Catholic friends, brothers, or sisters… I’m not trying to stir up controversy. Look directly to the Bible for your spiritual foundation and your salvation (look in the book of John or Romans for instance) vs. trusting man or anyone other than Jesus Christ. If you thank Jesus and admit you’re a sinner, and ask Jesus into your heart… then according to the Bible, you will enter into Heaven and your name will be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. It’s pretty much that simple.

              Take some time and pray about this. Ask the Lord to help you know the truth. Search the Bible for your answers and God Himself will help you to see His truth… and He will shed His grace and mercy on you – like He did for all of mankind. When you are born again… you KNOW it! The Holy Spirit fills your heart… you can feel it. And trust me, you will easily know the difference between what you practiced before (Catholicism) and what you embraced through faith (the born again life).

              I say this in love and hope you will search God out and accept Him through faith. This is literally the single most important thing that you can do in life. I sincerely hope and pray that you seek God and accept what He has done for you and me. :)

              • 1endtimes2020

                Christ built His church on the ‘rock’ of Peter. What is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. The Catholic leaders ‘loosed’ the sacraments, confession, baptism, confirmation, etc and the most important Communion. It may be more convenient to make a smorgasborg of the Catholic teachings, but traditional Catholics live their beliefs in every aspect of life, at work and play. How about obeying the Ten Commandments, one of which is Honoring the Sabaath? God wants us to rest on the 7th day. How many half Catholics go to church on Sunday and then to the Mall?
                The Commandments and the Sacraments are excellent to produce good citizens.

                • Sober_Thinking

                  sjmom is a Catholic and by the sound of it, she is born again.

                  I left the Catholic church because I couldn’t abide by all of their teachings. If you choose to live your life in accordance with your beliefs… so be it.

                  I just don’t believe that a person can get into Heaven without confessing his or her sins, thanking Jesus for dying for us and then through faith, accepting Jesus into his or her heart (being born again) and acknowledging Him as Lord of our life. The bible is very clear on this.

                  Here’s a link that explains this better than I can:

                  http://peacewithgod.jesus.net/mobile/

                  I wish you well.

                • sarahsupporter

                  “I just don’t believe that a person can get into Heaven without confessing his or her sins, thanking Jesus for dying for us and then through faith, accepting Jesus into his or her heart (being born again) and acknowledging Him as Lord of our life”

                  Catholics believe this exactly……..whoever has ever lead you to believe that Catholics do NOT believe this have been misleading you. We just add on some things like: asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us, visiting the sacraments, etc. But at the heart of it all is Jesus.

                • Sober_Thinking

                  I’m just speaking from my own experience. I mean no disrespect… I just don’t embrace the “adding on” portion of the faith that I left.

                  As I said before, there is no doubt in my mind that regardless of what religious affiliation we may identify ourselves with, there are certainly people who are saved in many other various named religions. I am now a Fundamental, Independent Baptist – that’s my “organized religion affiliation”. I no longer believe that you have to be Baptist or whatever to be saved… though I did at one time.

                  It sounds like overall, fundamentally, we are of one accord.

                  God bless you. :)

              • Conservative_Hippie

                Without the faith of a child, we won’t accept the gift from God. And if you have to do ANYTHING other than accept God’s gift through faith… then it’s no longer a gift.

                ^This is the bottom line to me. We can attack each others religions until we are blue in the face, but whether you’re Catholic, Protestant, whatever – what it comes down to is simple child like faith in Christ! That’s why I was able to receive Jesus at the age of 5!

                • Sober_Thinking

                  I agree. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

                • Conservative_Hippie

                  LOL, you mean after you already pointed it out? Just riding the wave :)

                • Sober_Thinking

                  You’re hanging ten better than I…

                  :)

            • Conniption Fitz

              “the Catholic Church put together the Bible in the Council of Nicaea in 325.”

              Actually, the Concilliar Church, made up of a Council of Patriarchies declared the Canon of Scripture by the shared authority of the group.

              Later, the Roman Patriarchy created a schism by declaring itself THE authority and arbiter of Christendom. This was a presumptious and unbiblical political power play to vaunt itself over Constantinople and the Church of the East. Rome was responsible for the sacking of Constantinople during one of the Crusades.

              The Roman church allied with various emperors and tyrants through the years and persecuted and exploited many people. The Reformation occurred for at least 95 very good reasons – the most important – that it was direly needed.

              Rome is not now and will never be the WHOLE Church.

              Rome is also not without error. For one example, look at the unbiblical pronouncement that Islam is a way of salvation (CCC#841).

              Rome’s exclusive hierarchy is a self-perpetuating political group (compromised of about half active gays) that has violated and destroyed many children without repentance, covering up its sins, until recently.

              Don’t try to idealize Roman Catholicism either now or in the past.

              • Conniption Fitz

                PS – The Bible says Jerusalem is our Mother.
                The word Jerusalem is composed of three Hebrew words: Jah-yireh-shalom (Jehovah – worship – peace) and the figurative meaning is ‘God shoots peace’ (when/as we worship)… God imparts Himself, His Peace (God is our Peace, Ephesians 2:14) to us when we worship.

          • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

            We (Catholics) Pray to Mary because she is pure and is closer to God… We ask her to pray on our behalf to God because she “carries more weight” for want of a better description. Same thing with the Saints… People accuse Catholics of worshiping saints when it’s clear we do NOT! Please let’s not get into another “Catholic bashing” exercise. Can’t we just agree we’re all on the path to God… Some have chosen a different route… But Ultimately we’ll all get there…

            Compared to Islam… Which is the faith, I believe of the Anti-Christ!

            • Rshill7

              No. We are not. You are on the path to Mary and whoever is Pope. Sorry. I disagree with that and your Catholic teachings/traditions, which they created out of thin air.

              That disagreement stems from the Bible, not my own concoctions. You Mary worshipers sure like to use the word ‘bashing’ don’t you? Your church needs no help in that.

              Try this word: “Truth”…free from extrabiblical opinion and tradition.

              • sarahsupporter

                “No. We are not. You are on the path to Mary and whoever is Pope.”

                No, we are on the path to Jesus.

                You assume you know the Catholic faith and from there you launch off on your tirade of hate towards something that I love, and from that I gather here, others love as well. You are creating animosity between people who should instead be living in Christian fellowship. You are stoking a fire of fighting, and worst of all, it is all so unnecessary. Please take your anti-catholic feelings elsewhere.

                • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

                  I don’t see Rshill as hating. I see him passionate about the Bible. Sola Scriptura.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  Yeah “sola Scriptura” comes from the guy (Luther) who put the box cutter to seven books of scripture and would have cut revelations with other New testament books if he wasn’t convinced to stop. oi -_-

                • Rshill7

                  No thank you. I will say precisely what I want to say whenever I choose to say it. I will not bend the truth for you, the Pope, Mary, or anybody else.

                  If you’re ever in a crowded theater and someone yells fire, make sure you turn to them and ask them why they are “bashing” the theater, hating the theater, and being anti-theater. Don’t even consider for a second that they may be trying to save your life.

            • las1

              You are aware that the CCC places Islam above protestantism, are you not… In first place no less!
              CCC 841

              And FYI Wolfie… I have RC family and friends and acknowledge much of the good by the RC Church for the poor etc. I’m from Canada, we are more Catholic here. I grew up with it. I’m familiar with it. I hold no animus to Catholics… just its dogmas.

              I have however noticed an extreme intolerance by RCs against protestants. Canada has the preeminent Protestant “basher” Michael Coren on SUN TV who parades a veritable conga line of Catholics on his nightly show and has written a book Why Catholics are Right. Then there is Michael Voris of RealCatholicTV. The new breed of dismissive Catholic.

              And this Protestant “bashing” is more prevalent of late since the Roman Church sees an opportunity to reabsorb “errant” children like the Anglicans, the Eastern Orthodox and “proper thinking” protestants. What I see is very nasty indeed. Sure there are nasty protestants… but I would say that the Catholic apologist simply corners the market because their dogmas don’t hold up to scrutiny… hence their frustration. The result… real anger.

              OK… so the debate gets heated… but heat is not the issue now, is it? The issue is authority! Whose authority? The scripture, or the Papacy. That is why I earlier referenced you to consult scripture instead of your priest when making a decision to enter the priesthood.

              The colossal superstructure of dogmas, doctrines, infallibility, Magesterium, Saint Worship, Mary Worship (yes it’s worship despite what modern Catholics may think), the sacramental treadmill as well as the list of pronounced anathemas bear absolutely no resemblance to what Biblical scripture contains.

              I’m bemused by the proud declarations Catholics make about Protestant “converts”, but they never tell you that most of these “converts” revert back to a belief in Sola Scripturum as the only authority in Christianity. But Catholics who leave the RC Church for Biblical faith and faith alone are legion… because they end up with scripture as authority instead of being tossed by the winds of a capricious Papal authority and the sacramental treadmill of works.

              The argument will always be salvation by grace alone, OR salvation by works and all its attendant unBiblical dogmas and heresies.

              Do you really want to submit your salvation to the pronouncements of men? That’s the real issue, now isn’t it?

          • sarahsupporter

            Rshill7, I do not mind open dialogue about different religions and opinions, but you are getting way out of line here. I do not have to defend my faith to you. Its obvious you have problems with the Catholic faith, but don’t start a fight with me about it.

            • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

              It’s distressing to me as well… So much so, I’m thinking of getting out of this thread entirely so I won’t read it. I have friends here… I’d like to keep them, and this is a very divisive issue. I’m a Catholic, I don’t bash Protestants (my wife is a Lutheran) and I don’t argue with them about the “issues” we have within our Christian faith because it always causes problems.

              I like to think of it as us all setting out on a trip… Originally all in the same convoy of cars… but as we go along… Some take the “scenic route” and some think they “know a shortcut” or “a better way”… But ultimately we are all headed for the same destination… We might argue about the route, but we all agree the destination is the place we all hope to reach, right?

              • sarahsupporter

                It is distressing that we come here to discuss our shared political views and end up having to fight and defend our Faith, I agree.

                • las1

                  That’s funny, I though I was here having to defend my faith.

                  But Sarah, as long as the discourse is respectful if occasionally heated, I have no problem.

              • Orangeone

                Please don’t leave the thread Wolfie, I personally am learning from your posts and wisdom.

                • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

                  I just came back after an hour, and after taking a quick skim, it is as I feared. I’ll not be back in this thread again. :-( I can’t even bring myself to read it all, for there are comments made that… Oh hell, what does it matter…

                  I’m out of here. I might well be out of this great forum/website at this stage… :-(

                • las1

                  Don’t be “Canadian like”, there my friend Wofie. Canadians can have a tendency to be afraid of strong discourse, something I am learning to overcome. One thing I learned from Europeans, you can still disagree, yet be agreeable. I love to read your comments, and agree with most of your posts. And you are still a brother, if even a Catholic one.

                • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

                  I’m not afraid of “strong discourse” (haven’t you been reading my posts? LOL! :-)

                  I just don’t want to engage on this issue because I know I will say things that will hurt my friends, not deliberately of course and they in kind will say things that may hurt me, again with no degree of intent to do so.

                  I don’t see anything good coming out of this. So I won’t be part of it. I won’t engage when I see nothing to be gained. God Bless you, even if you are a Prot. ;-)

                • las1

                  a Prot!…

                  well! I never!

                  See ya later on another thread there my friend.

              • sjmom

                You just made the wisest point of the entire discussion because as I have been reading I am amazed at both sides of the argument.

                • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

                  Thanks sjmom, that means a lot.

                • sjmom

                  :) :):)

            • Rshill7

              I didn’t say a word to you until you said a word to me first. If you don’t want to discuss it, don’t. I was talking to Ms. Fatima up top, not you.

              In other words, you started it.

          • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

            Well Rshill7, very poignant and all true. All of your 3 posts above may have been a bit on the heavy side but it all needs to be said.

            To our Catholic members here I can only say; Open your bible and let the Holy Spirit lead you and get on your knees and ask the Lord God to explain to you why Mary is not the way, but Jesus is the only way:

            John 14:6

            New International Version (NIV)

            6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

            • sarahsupporter

              There is not one Catholic that I have ever met or known or heard of who would disagree with you!!! We are the first Christian Church, the church of Peter. We know that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. Our missionaries, which include the first apostles and disciples, have spread the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ for over 2000 years throughout the entire world. A true Catholic DOES NOT worship Mary, for once and for all!! We worship Jesus Christ, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. In fact Mary would be the first to say not me, my Son!!! Jesus instituted the Church and its sacraments while still on earth. We follow Him!!!

          • Sober_Thinking

            Deleted… may be too controversial.

            • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

              It’s a minefield here today… One step over there… and ‘click’… jump back and ‘click’ and you wonder why did you ever come into this field at all… :-)

              • Sober_Thinking

                :)

                Well, and what I posted here wasn’t necessarily that well thought-out. I wasn’t accurately saying what I wanted to say.

                Take care my friend and hang in there.

          • 1endtimes2020

            You just don’t get it and your ‘facts’ are skewed. Jesus built His church on the ‘rock’ of Peter, and that is the original Catholic church. When you see Russia converted, after the next Pope and Bishops of the world consecrate that country, Russia will become Catholic, just as how it happened in Mexico. Today, Mexico could use another consecration, since it has become so corrupt.

            • Rshill7

              Oh well, one’s bliss is another’s ignorance. Be as ignorantly blissful as you want to be. Whatever sinks your boat is fine with me. I prefer seaworthy boats.

              • 1endtimes2020

                You don’t need a boat. I’m sure you can walk on water by now.
                Hey—-it’s a joke, okay? Hope you have a sense of humor, as Jesus does.

        • Rshill7

          The apostle Paul wrote his epistles in common, marketplace, Greek. Some of the New Testament was also written in Aramaic. Did we really need Catholic monks to translate it into Latin?

          The Catholic Church kept common people in the dark regarding the scriptures until the invention of the printing press, at which time it began being translated into other common languages which people could read. By that time, the Catholic Church had so corrupted scriptures with traditions that we had a little thing called the Reformation.

          • sarahsupporter

            The little thing called the Reformation came about due to the fact that once the printing press was invented, yes, it was much easier to distribute the Bible, but the problem was so many people used self interpretation. What this means is that any given lesson in the scriptures was deciphered a hundred different ways, each man to his own way and understanding. Hence, during the Reformation time, hundreds of Sects broke away from the Catholic Church and formed their own church. That is why there are so many different Christians churches today, each with its own variation from the other.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

            Duck Rshill the Vulgate, translated St. Jerome in the late third century and early fouth, was the first bible to have all the current books in a single language: Latin. and it was the ONLY universal bible until the invention of the printing press and widespread education among the population.

            • Rshill7

              One would think they would read it then, wouldn’t one? You have said absolutely nothing here.

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                Actually, do you think Jesus would leave his church on earth guideless for 1500 years? If the Vulgate isn’t the word of God…. why did God abandon his people fore 1500 years? after all only through the bible can we be saved and there wasn’t one that was avilable until the King James came out…

                Rofl

                • Rshill7

                  You are arguing with yourself now John. Did I say the Vulgate was not the word of God? No I did not. It’s simply in Latin. Is Latin magic?

                  I said, “One would think they would read it then, wouldn’t one?”

                  You are being dishonest and silly. C-ya.

                  But, feel free to give us some scriptures regarding indulgences and burning folks at the stake.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  Nope, you accused us of twisting the translations so much in our Bible that it’s no longer the word of G-d.

                  Latin USED to be the uniting language of Europe, very much like English is fast becoming, if there is any language to translate the Word of G-d into in the 4th century, it was Latin. Latin remained the uniting religion of Europe well into the middle ages, if you wanted to talk to another person for another country, the best bet would be to try Latin. (oh and i do own a copy, very good read to stay sharp on Latin)

                • Rshill7

                  Twisting translations? No I did not. I basically accused you of ignoring the word of God in every language, and replacing it with words of mortal men. See the difference?

                  What I have been trying to get through to you, is this:

                  The words of Priests and Popes aren’t worth a molten ha’penny, and neither is praying to Mary or any Saint. Look to the Word itself, or be misled. Simple as that.

                  Whether I say you and your church are wrong, loudly, softly, sweetly or directly, it all comes down to the same thing. It is wrong. Take it nicely, take offense at it, or don’t take it at all. However you take it though, is irrelevant. You and your church are wrong in every language and every attitude.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  I again i must warn you to duck, after the the books of the bible were put together the only translation that was available up to the Protestant Revolt was the CATHOLIC Latin Vulgate that you claim was “man made.”

                  The Catholic Church was the one that fought off the many heresies in the first centuries, the Catholic Church was the one that converted the Empire, the Catholic Church was the one who put the Bible together and translated it into one universal language, the Catholic Church held Europe together during/after the fall of Rome, the Catholic Church were the ones to convert and tame the Barbarians of the North, the Catholic Church was the one to preserve Ancient Western Civilization via monasteries, the Catholic Church was the one that held off the Muslims from conquering Europe, and it was the Catholic Church that converted 9 million Indians to Christianity over the course of 9 years (with a ton of help of Mary FYI).

                  Without us chances are you’d be in a mud hut in Europe praying to Mecca five times a day while cannibalism and human would still be practiced in Mexico city as a national religion.

                  I’d be best if you’d remembered that.

                • las1

                  It’s not for nothing that Latin is called a “dead language”. It has its place in the sciences and in Chruch history and as one of the languages of the Church Fathers, and as a tool for scholarly research. But there are no serious people who argue it’s applicability as a translation source or it applicability for modern believers.

                  And as for latin being the lingua-franca, there is one glitch there John. The New Testament was written in lingua-franca of its time… the Koine Greek. This is not to diminish the importance of Latin, but I know of no modern translator who would translate out of the Vulgate. None of any integrity that is. But they sure are scouring archives for any scrap of Koine or even Aramaic to add to the extant collection.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  There is one, Father Knox, he translated from the Vulgate and the original Hebrew, and Greek texts into English to try to convey the original intent as best as he could.

                  It is a very good read and i suggest it to you.

                • las1

                  Sorry John… Ronald Knox is an Anglican covert to RC and his Vulgate translation is a a dreamy attempt to somehow recapture a lost Roman Catholic glory for the Anglican Church.

                  His is not a serious endeavour considering a glut of translations on the market even in the first half of the 20th Century. It’s really barely worth anyone’s effort. Serious people translate from the original languages. Sorry… that’s just the way it is. There may be some esoteric reason he translated it, but I am sure there was not a line of people around the block waiting to be the first.

                • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

                  He spent NINE years translating it. Nine years worth of work isn’t a serious effort? ROFL. pathetic.

                  It is an EXCELLENT version and he has THOUSANDS of footnotes explaining the more difficult parts of the translations, hell he even wrote another book about translating it. The only reason you’re dismissing him is because he’s Catholic :P

                • 1endtimes2020

                  The Catholic Bible was rewritten to produce the King James bible, to make it more English and easier for others to understand. The Catholic Bible is the Douay-Rheims.

              • Orangeone

                Rshill you are my friend but I must disagree. John Bohler provided a bit of history I was unfamiliar with and I appreciate his sharing of it. I also appreciate your perspectives.

                • Rshill7

                  Then both you and he are wrong. I don’t care who you are or who he is.

                • Orangeone

                  Then perhaps you might look elsewhere to communicate.  I don’t enjoy or respect this type of communication and it’s not the first time you have spoken to me this way.  People have differing opinions and perspectives on religion and each is entitled to their own beliefs.

                • Rshill7

                  Tough. If you have a problem with it, consider leaving yourself. I’m going to yell Fire(!) when the proverbial theater is burning and don’t give a burnt biscuit what you think or theorize about it.

                  I strenuously disagreed with all of that Mary worship Fatima garbage and spoke out. I will again in the future. I don’t appreciate false doctrines escorting folks to Hell. If you do, live with yourself. I will call lies lies, each and every time I see one.

                • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

                  Why so hostile? Can’t you agree to disagree with respect?

                • Rshill7

                  It looks respectful to me. Not hostile.

                  Why are you so hostile? And why are so many of you imagining hostility, anger, and hate from me? It looks to me that almost none of you can handle disagreement in the least.

                • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

                  I won’t argue with you… I should have followed my first instinct and stayed out of this thread when I saw how it was developing. In future, I will do just that. Better for everyone.

        • las1

          You are wrong about that worshipping part. The great “doctor” of the Church, Alphonsus Maria de Liguori is the greatest brain behind the Mary worship in Romanism. You will be stunned to learn what this man declared and propagated and subsequently was named “Doctor” for. Mary is in effect the “fourth person” of the Trinity. Utter heresy.

          Liquori … and she is a…. mediatress of peace between sinners and God. Sinners receive pardon by Mary alone… Mary is our life… Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession… thus restores them to life. He fails and is lost who has not recourse to Mary”.

          The Bible”… there is one God, and one Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus… Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me”.

          This is BUT ONE from the vaunted Alphonsus Maria di Liquori… we could go on all day with his Mary heresies.

          Get back to your Bible and stop following myths.

        • Sober_Thinking

          I was raised Catholic. I went to Mass (sp?), was baptized (trickle of water on the forehead – not fully emersed), went to Catechism, went through Confirmation, etc. I went to Catholic school from 4th grade all the way up through Sophomore year in High School.

          When I joined the USAF, I met Shane Haley… the “religious guy” in my dorm. He and I formed a friendship through our mutual love of playing guitars. He told me about Jesus and showed me in the Bible about how Jesus came and sacrificed His life for me – how He took my sin and washed it away with His precious blood (because we have all sinned and it must be paid for) and gave me everlasting life as a result – if I would receive Him and by faith accept God’s gracious, merciful gift.

          I remained skeptical and elusive for about 2 years… But Shane persisted (so did the Holy Spirit) and taught me from the Bible (The Word of God) how to be saved… how to accept the Lord as my savior and how I didn’t need a “middle man” (Mary, the saints, a Priest, the Pope, etc.)… how my relationship with Jesus was directly between me and God. I could approach God directly and have a personal relationship with Him.

          This is VERY hard for Catholics to embrace because we have been raised up in tradition and Catholic teachings through our church, our family, our priest, etc. But I tell you, lighting candles for passed away loved ones, praying to Mary or the saints, the Rosary, nuns/priests, Pergatory, etc. – none of that is biblical nor will it get you into Heaven if you don’t accept and know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It’s as simple as the children’s song: “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” Without the faith of a child, we won’t accept the gift from God. And if you have to do ANYTHING other than accept God’s gift through faith… then it’s no longer a gift.

          I mean no disrespect to my Catholic friends, brothers, or sisters… I’m not trying to stir up controversy. Look directly to the Bible for your spiritual foundation and your salvation (look in the book of John or Romans for instance) vs. trusting man or anyone other than Jesus Christ. If you thank Jesus and admit you’re a sinner, and ask Jesus into your heart… then according to the Bible, you will enter into Heaven and your name will be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. It’s pretty much that simple.

          Take some time and pray about this. Ask the Lord to help you know the truth. Search the Bible for your answers and God Himself will help you to see His truth… and He will shed His grace and mercy on you – like He did for all of mankind. When you are born again… you KNOW it! The Holy Spirit fills your heart… you can feel it. And trust me, you will easily know the difference between what you practiced before (Catholicism) and what you embraced through faith (the born again life).

          I say this in love and hope you will search God out and accept Him through faith. This is literally the single most important thing that you can do in life. I sincerely hope and pray that you seek God and accept what He has done for you and me. :)

          • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

            Beautifully said Sober_Brother. Thank you. Blessed are the peacemakers.

            • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

              I concur!

            • Sober_Thinking

              Thank you. I don’t want to offend… but I hope this post was helpful.

              I appreciate your encouragement. :)

              • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

                :-) It was excellent, and I thank you for sharing your testamony.

          • sjmom

            As a Catholic I heartily agree with your post.

            • Sober_Thinking

              You’re very sweet. That means a lot to me.

              • sjmom

                You are an excellent Christian, all of your posts which I have read are ever insightful and I truly respect you as my brother in Christ so thank you for your compliment. :)

        • sjmom

          Sarah, I am a Catholic, 13 years of parochial school, and still attend Mass every week. There is much misunderstanding among those who are not Catholic but to be honest as someone who reads the Bible everyday there is way too much “tradition” in the Catholic Church. There is also not enough teaching on the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit.

          • Sober_Thinking

            As I said before in other posts… people may call themselves Catholics, Protestants, Episcopalian, Charismatic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. and still be saved.

            As long as the Word of God (Bible) is our foundation and we are born again, then we can all be counted as Christians.

            I appreciate you sjmom.

          • las1

            Sjmom… I really feel for those Catholics who know their scripture. But if they dare speak out to the Roman Catholic hierarchy, they can face some bleak blow back. That’s why it’s difficult for an orthodox Christian believer to remain within the Roman system.

            Catholic doctrine is out there for all to see… it’s not just Roman Catholics who “understand” it. In fact, most Catholics do NOT understand it. And one of the arguments that Catholic apologists constantly try to make is that non-Catholics “misunderstand”… as if that’s an argument in their favour.

            I maintain that if more Catholics really understood, or even knew the vast superstructure of Roman dogmas and doctrines and the Roman sacramental treadmill, then they would certainly really question their Catholic faith. Most Catholics don’t even know that Catholic salvation is obtained first through Mary, then through Christ then through ongoing merits and works.

            Catholics face a lot of hurt to come out of this system, because when they do, the official Catholic anathema (curse) comes down on them through Catholic dogma. They are damned to hell… a fate that according to the CCC does not happen to Muslims. Think about that! A manifestly anti-Christ Islamic system, according to the RCC qualifies one for salvation. But the non-Catholic Christian is anathematized.

            In many ways, the Roman system is similar to Islam… once in it, you can’t get out unless you are prepared to face an eternal penalty.

            • sjmom

              Here’s what I am: a born again, Bible believing, Spirit filled Christian who worships at the Catholic Church and you’re not far from the truth in that if I were to ever get into a discussion with some of the hierarchy they’d probably have me excommunicated. The truth is they can never separate me from the love of my Jesus who shed His Blood for me.

              My relationship is with the Lord alone and it is He I will follow all the days of my life. Maybe because I am a Catholic I look at some doctrines as a bunch of hoopla to which men cling. It’s all about Love who is God who is Love. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and without Him we are not only lost eternally but also throughout our earthly life for without Wisdom from on High we would lose more than our way.

              One thing the Lord has taught me its not about religion but relationship. Satan took what Jesus did and has divided His Body into how many “religious” denominations???? Too many to count! There is one Lord, one Spirit and one Baptism and in these last days I pray everyone will put aside denominational doctrines and walk in love, one with the other. This is when we will become the glorious church for which the Lord is returning.

              It is when we walk in love the Lord can work with us and we will begin to see the glory of the former and latter rain. Oh how I look forward to all which the Lord has for us in these end times because no matter how bad things look our God is behind the scenes working to gather His end time army in the earth together. With Sword in hand we will conquer the forces of evil and go on to Glory. “Arise, shine, for thy light is come and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.” Isaiah 60:1 KJV

              COME LORD JESUS!

              • PVG

                AMEN SJMOM!
                It is not rituals that get us to heaven, but a relationship with Jesus PERIOD!

        • trouble06

          Sarah, why do you need Mary as an intercessor to bring you closer to Jesus? YOU can do that yourself.

      • Sober_Thinking

        Spot on my friend. :)

      • sjmom

        rs, I am Catholic and Catholicism is so rooted in tradition and the teachings of men I at times shake my head. You’re right to base everything on Scripture as do I and if it is not in “The Book” I lay it aside. Maybe, I am not a “good” Catholic but then my goal is to be a disciple of Jesus.

        Have you ever thought about when the Lord walked the earth? There were NO denominations, no churches, and no division among the disciples, not in Christianity anyway. I pray we’ll get there again.

      • http://onthemark1.blogspot.com/ On The Mark

        I too was taken aback by the extra-biblical reference to Mary. And I appreciate the facts you relate in your several comments here. But anyone of any religion or denomination self-identified as Christian can be ignorant or mistaken about what the Bible actually teaches. Many Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, are sincere in their desire for truth, but have been misled by their teachers, pastors, priests. Proving ourselves right cannot be our motivation. Rather, it must be for the ‘other guy’ to become right. But your contempt and anger are not at all persuasive.

        On the issue at hand, when someone “asks” something of Mary, he is praying to her. There is no way around it. The necessary implication is that Mary can answer prayer (or grant requests, if you like). Therefore, by so doing, one is attributing to Mary some god-like worth. This is worship, even though one may not attribute to her the same worth as one does to God the Father or to the Son.

        Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

        “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

        Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

        ~Mark 3:31-35

        • Rshill7

          Contempt and anger? You are just as imaginative as John is. If you disagree with the how or the content of what I’ve said, why did you then proceed to repeat what I’ve said in your post? The only anger I saw came from John and Sarah. Hence all the caps and exclamation points etc.

          You agree with what I’ve said but don’t like the way that I said it?

          But, I’m still right? Why did you even bother?

      • 1endtimes2020

        You just don’t get it because you don’t spend time on the website. Mary is the mother of God. Naturally she wants us to worship her son. She was given authority from the Father to convert nations and lead people to Christ. We don’t worship her and she wouldn’t want that. Mexico was converted to Catholicism because of Mary. Portugal was protects from the Spanish civil war and no German troops entered Portugal because the Bishops consecrated Portugal to her. Who are you to criticize the Father.
        As I said, her tasks came after the resurrection of Christ. Today, the Catholic church is not obsessed with Mary. The Pope and |Bishops of the world will not consecrate Russia to her. But it will happen, and people like you will be amazed at the turn around that takes place in Russia. The workings of God is a continuous process. It doesn’t end at the end of the Bible.
        Mary is saving souls too. Remember, when we are in Heaven, we will also become sons and daughters of the Father, with tasks to do. That is in the Bible too.
        If you don’t want to look into things that are important, to enlighten yourself, that’s your business. But it isn’t your business to unduly criticize others who know the historic truth of what took place at Fatima, and Mexico and Portugal.
        The Catholic church li.beralized itself in the early 1960s and has lost respect ever since. When it stuck to its guns, at least people who were not Catholic respected her.

        • Rshill7

          “She [Mary] was given authority from the Father to convert nations and lead people to Christ.” (1endtimes2020)

          No, she was not.

          Also, your first post on this thread was “obsessed with Mary”. This post I am responding to is also obsessed with Mary. I haven’t “criticized the Father”, nor have I lied about Him. You however, continue to lie about the Father, the Saints, the Scriptures, and Mary.

          I’ll leave you to that, in wild-eyed wonderment.

          P.S. Popes are not infallible either.

        • badbadlibs

          God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He has no beginning and no end. He does not have a mother. With all due respect, I stayed out of the fray of this thread, however, for God to have a mother, then all else in Scripture is false. And for that I must speak.
          Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Word become Flesh, the only sinless One who would die for us all, including the woman who bore Him.
          Matthew 12:46-50

          46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

          48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

          Anything else I could write I know you have heard before, so in posting this, I do more for the contending of the faith and for others who may read and know no better.

          God loves you, this I know. And I have great respect for your pro life beliefs and thank you for standing for good and decent morals. I truly mean no disrespect, 1endtimes2020.

          • 1endtimes2020

            Mary is not the mother of the Father. I thought that was a given. Of course she’s the mother of Jesus. I doubt anyone thinks otherwise.
            This subject has been exhausted, as far as I’m concerned.

    • Sober_Thinking

      I was raised Catholic. I went to Mass (sp?), was baptized (trickle of water on the forehead – not fully emersed), went to Catechism, went through Confirmation, etc. I went to Catholic school from 4th grade all the way up through Sophomore year in High School.

      When I joined the USAF, I met Shane Haley… the “religious guy” in my dorm. He and I formed a friendship through our mutual love of playing guitars. He told me about Jesus and showed me in the Bible about how Jesus came and sacrificed His life for me – how He took my sin and washed it away with His precious blood (because we have all sinned and it must be paid for) and gave me everlasting life as a result – if I would receive Him and by faith accept God’s gracious, merciful gift.

      I remained skeptical and elusive for about 2 years… But Shane persisted (so did the Holy Spirit) and taught me from the Bible (The Word of God) how to be saved… how to accept the Lord as my savior and how I didn’t need a “middle man” (Mary, the saints, a Priest, the Pope, etc.)… how my relationship with Jesus was directly between me and God. I could approach God directly and have a personal relationship with Him.

      This is VERY hard for Catholics to embrace because we have been raised up in tradition and Catholic teachings through our church, our family, our priest, etc. But I tell you, lighting candles for passed away loved ones, praying to Mary or the saints, the Rosary, nuns/priests, Pergatory, etc. – none of that is biblical nor will it get you into Heaven if you don’t accept and know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It’s as simple as the children’s song: “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” Without the faith of a child, we won’t accept the gift from God. And if you have to do ANYTHING other than accept God’s gift through faith… then it’s no longer a gift.

      I mean no disrespect to my Catholic friends, brothers, or sisters… I’m not trying to stir up controversy. Look directly to the Bible for your spiritual foundation and your salvation (look in the book of John or Romans for instance) vs. trusting man or anyone other than Jesus Christ. If you thank Jesus and admit you’re a sinner, and ask Jesus into your heart… then according to the Bible, you will enter into Heaven and your name will be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. It’s pretty much that simple.

      Take some time and pray about this. Ask the Lord to help you know the truth. Search the Bible for your answers and God Himself will help you to see His truth… and He will shed His grace and mercy on you – like He did for all of mankind. When you are born again… you KNOW it! The Holy Spirit fills your heart… you can feel it. And trust me, you will easily know the difference between what you practiced before (Catholicism) and what you embraced through faith (the born again life).

      I say this in love and hope you will search God out and accept Him through faith. This is literally the single most important thing that you can do in life. I sincerely hope and pray that you seek God and accept what He has done for you and me. :)

      • PVG

        Well done my Sober friend! May those who read these words be drawn closer to Christ!

        • Sober_Thinking

          Thanks m8… agreed.

    • Cindy09

      That’s a bunch of baloney!!

      • 1endtimes2020

        Baloney, my foot. see www,fatima.org Look for the actual newspaper photos of the Miracle of the Sun.
        But, look, I wanted to lay this out for those who never heard of all this. I’m not going to get into a debate with non believers and people who don’t want to take the time to look at a website.
        I don’t want to communicate with you. Go your way and I’ll go mine.
        Being told ‘baloney’ is so immature.

        • Nukeman60

          ‘Being told ‘baloney’ is so immature.

          So is denigrating it and then saying you do not want to debate about it. I guess you’re even.

          • 1endtimes2020

            I haven’t insulted anyone, and I had already answered enough comments about this topic.
            Why try to debate someone who starts off with one word—baloney? What would you do? Never mind. I don’t want to communicate with you either.

            • Nukeman60

              ‘Never mind. I don’t want to communicate with you either.

              And yet you just did.

              You insulted by calling her immature, whether the statement is true or not. Personally, if I didn’t care to discuss it with her I would have ignored her. You did neither.

              • 1endtimes2020

                Baloney

                • Nukeman60

                  Now you’re catching on.

        • Cindy09

          I guess you are probably gone by now. I said “baloney” in jest as your post is not substantiated by the Bible. The only Savior I know of, is Jesus the Son of God. The Apostle Paul, strongly warns us of any other “gospel” of anyone else, that would divert us from the Word of Truth! And part of what you said is pretty obscure for most Christians and is not found in the Bible. So I’ll leave it at that…

          • 1endtimes2020

            Okay, Cindy, I’ll respond one more time. In the Bible, you know an angel appeared to Mary, don’t you? The angel said to Mary, which today is part of a prayer to Mary, “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women” The angel told Mary she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus (Emmanul) if she accepted , who would be the Saviour of the world. Mary answered “Let it be done according to the word”.
            When the angel said Mary full of ‘grace’, it meant she was born without original sin. That’s why she was full–of –grace. ( We earn grace whenever we make sacrifices or good works for to help others, and offer them to the Father. )
            The Father chose Mary, who was pure of heart. You can well imagine, the Father would not want the Holy Spirit to have Mary carry the Son of God the Father, within a sinful womb. Just as sinful people cannot enter heaven with sin on their souls, neither did it make sense to have baby Jesus in the womb of a sinful person.
            Blessed art thou among women. The Lord is with thee. It tells everything.
            Mary’s whole life was to support Jesus and have everyone recognize Jesus was the (only) Saviour of the world, by dying, in our place, to erase our sins, so we could be unblemished before entering into heaven. We are not worthy enough to do all kinds of works, or sacrifices or anything else to erase all our sins. We also still carry the original sin from Adam and Eve. It takes ‘a god’ to be able to erase those sins. Not just any God–byt God, as in the Son of God, sent by the Father, with the only purpose of making it possible for sinners toqualify to enter heaven. So, Jesus suffered on the cross for us, and took on all of our past and future sins. All we needed to do is “Love one another” and obey the Commandments. We fail in that too often.
            All people had to do is to believe Jesus did that for us. “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one goes to the Father but by me” To those who don’t want to believe, after they heard the “Good news’ of what Jesus did for our salvation, don’t enter heaven. His only stipulation. His rule. Imagine all of heaven with souls where some believe in the Saviour and others don’t? That just wouldn’t be possible.
            Mary is not a Saviour. She wants everyone to be saved by believing Jesus is the only way to be saved. But the Father gave her special powers to intercede for us. (Mary’s declaration) He did that because she was the mother of Jesus. Mary was not buried in a grave. The Ascension means she was transformed as Jesus was after His resurrection, and ascended into heaven. When she appeared at Lourdes, and Fatima, she could be seen by those she wanted to see her. 70,000 people gathered at Fatima, Portugal, yet only the 3 shepherd children saw her. The whole town gave her parents a hard time, and those that stood in the rain in that Fatima field were mostly scoffers. So the children asked Mary if she could give the people ‘a sign’ that she appeared to them. This came about with the miracle of the sun—well documented, with the newspaper headlines still in archives. The sun danced around, changing colors, and then appeared to be plummeting to the earth. Then it moved back to normal—that is how it appeared to those people. Every leaf on the trees was dry, so was the clothes and the land. One of the children that died was exhumed about 30 years later, and had not decomposed.
            When Mary appeared to the children it was to request the Pope and Bishops of the world to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart. Doing this would prevent Russia, which was about to turn communist, from spreading its errors throughout the world.
            The consecration was not done, and I am quite put off at the Vatican for not meeting her request. Mary told Lucy, the eldest of the children, who had become a nun, that the consecration would take place, “but it will be late'” Russia certainly has spread its errors in the world, alright. Mary also told Lucy that if the consecration was not done, the whole world would turn communist, including th USA. Once the consecration is done, Russia would convert, (as Mexico did) and there “will be peace in the world, for a time”. The message the angel gave Mary, ‘full of grace’ is now part of a prayer and part of Ave Maria.
            “Hail Mary, full of grace. the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women. and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, esus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death, amen”.
            That’s the best I can do, Cindy. It’s late, and I’m tired. I hope you will be satisfied with this response, and be assured that the Catholic church and the Vatican, and all Catholics, do not worship Mary, or saints. or statues. or anything else. Jesus is the Savior—period. Like any good son, Mary has a special place in His heart.
            Surely, she doesn’t deserve to be slandered.
            God bless you.

  • JoeMontana16

    Gog and Magog are Russia and Iran. The Bible gives clues as to what these countries are. Is Islam part of the end times? Yes. But they aren’t the Antichrist. I don’t like this Guy much. Seems like he wants to be the who THE expert on islam. He needs the attention.

    • RKflorida

      Agreed. A one trick pony keeping the focus on Islam.

    • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

      I would have to respectfully disagree my friend. You’ve heard Iran talk about the Mahdi countless times. The 12th Imam Mahdi/Dajjal is their version of the Anti-Christ.

      Here’s a good source to read up on it: http://tinyurl.com/yezpcq3

  • RKflorida

    The religion of the AC is being confused with the geographic area he comes from. The Roman Empire included far more than Europe. It included North Africa and large sections of the Middle east. Countries that today are Muslim. This issue is Shoebat’s issue, not the Church’s. The bible is silent on the AC’s religion, only stating that he will be a gentile, which means he could be anything except a Jew.

    • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

      The Ottoman Empire included much of what was the Roman Empire.

  • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

    deleted.

    • badbadlibs

      Wolfie, my friend, don’t leave us! Our faiths differ, but we are all believers.
      If everyone here knew (except one) about my beliefs, I would be getting an ear full too. (Acts 2:38….ducking now)
      But, God knows our hearts, our paths and He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. We all have had a starting place, God is able and willing to save!

      • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

        I’m sorry this thread was ever started. This is not to bash Scoop, as I’m sure his intentions as always, were honorable. But the discussion that had evolved.. Or is that devolved? Disappointing. I have to deal with this issue a lot as a Christian web designer who happens to be a Catholic. The amount of Protestants that refuse to work with me because I’m a Catholic is shocking to me… So I rarely talk religion here for a good reason. I like talking politics and culture… Those are things we can agree on, we fight together to preserve and restore. We all worship the same God. Can’t agree to disagree about who’s “Church” is the “Right” one until Judgement Day and let Christ sort us all out? Sorry Badbadlibs, this tirade is not aimed at you at all, but just in general. Now I’m done. Out of this thread at least.

        • badbadlibs

          As long as you’re just done with this thread!

          • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

            Thanks for caring… Much appreciated!

            • badbadlibs

              YW

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KYTC7EGQASGOTQYPY2KPC4XCZY Don

    While in a discussion over the holidays along these same lines, someone interjected whether Obama could be the AntiChrist. The response was “there is no way it could be that obvious.” A book that is worth reading on the subject is “The Late, Great Planet Earth” written by Hal Lindsey a few decades ago. It covers Revelations in a very telling way.

    • las1

      Just on the funny side here Don,

      I speculated as to whether Obama could be the AC. But then I thought, Naah! Can’t be. Afterall the AC can’t be that stupid.

      The Bible portrays the AC as a master manipulator. But then when I see the results of the Impostor-in-Chief and the fetid fruit he produces, and his manipulations, and then when I compare him to Lucifer and I believe that the Lucifer must have been really stupid to think he could rebel against God in the first place… then maybe this question could be a valid one for discussion… stupid-Obama or NO stupid-Obama. We arrive at pretty well the same place if you ask me.

    • Cindy09

      Let me put it this way: If Christ had a John the Baptist, a precursor; then, you can rest assured that the Antichrist will have one too!

    • Kelly60

      Don, glad you brought up Hal Lindsey…excellent source…good man of God. Definitely worth reading or listening.

      I’m very amazed that this thread has exploded like it has but can’t say I’m too surprised…religion usually goes that way…we must learn to come together at some point because it will be used against us. We must all learn to forgive and love one another. We all have different concepts, I will pursue mine according to what the Bible tells me and pray for his guidance, that’s all I can do.

      Love you all…

  • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

    This coming February will have made 12 months since we started a study on the Book of Revelation given by a man and very friend dear of mine who is a Messianic Jew. He was raise to know the Tanakh front and back. He has the entire bible memorized. Many say that the Bible is a carefully woven tapestry that if you turn over [open the bible and read it] you can see how the threads were woven.

    Will this man has the ability to tell you why each thread goes where. Although it is just one man’s opinion [albeit sought with fervent prayer by himself] I believe I am blessed to be under his discipleship.

    Everything about Islam being the Beast of the end-times is absolutely valid and can be verified through scripture. Remember, the enemy [Satan] wanted to be like God and so everything the Lord God is, Satan has his own version.

    Satan’s version of God: =’s Himself
    Satan’s version of Jesus: =’s The Anti-Christ
    Satan’s version of the Holy Spirit: =’s The False Prophet

    Listen to Islam and look into the Qur’an and the correlation is there.

    Other than that, if your interested in learning a very solid view of what the Book of Revelation is all about…..go here: http://www.watchmanofisrael.org/

  • sjmom

    I know little about prophecy though I am drawn to it and am hungry to learn more each time I listen. What I know is Jesus is coming again; what I don’t know is when He is coming other than I personally believe it is soon.

    Recently, I have listened to a number of people, both those who say the Anti Christ will come from Europe and those who think he will be a Muslim. Why couldn’t it be both? The Roman Empire was vast and covered the Middle East, so he could come from a Muslim nation. Then again, there are many Muslims throughout Europe today so why couldn’t he come from Europe?

    These discussions are interesting but they are also like denominational theology and at times cause divisions which IS against the teachings of Jesus. In John 17:21 Jesus prayed: “That they all may be one” and I pray we heed our Savior’s words because He is coming back for a glorious Church and one who walks in Love, who is God. Amen.

    • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

      As much as I have been and am interested in end time Prophecies, and enjoy discussing them, I think the Lord meant for us to be aware of the signs, not pointing to the antichrist, but to His own return :-) YAY!

      • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

        I wish and Pray Jesus will return soon! We need Him.

        • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

          Yes we do!

    • Watchman74

      Rapture timing is also one of those things that has caused divisions. I’ve seen Christians getting very upset with other Christians because they have a different rapture view, even calling them names and questioning there salvation. That is sad and not becoming of a Christian. There are essential doctrines every Christian should agree on, like the virgin birth. But things like rapture timing or who the AC is is trivial at best. Nothing wrong with having a friendly debate but I agree it shouldn’t cause divisions.

  • Orangeone

    Okay I know this isn’t an O/T but Mike Huckabee has declared today 1/5/13 to be Support Hobby Lobby day. For those without a store nearby, their online is GREAT! I just ordered a very funny “Man Cave” clock for my brother :) I also receive Hobby Lobby’s promos. They have $2.00 shipping today and have mentioned in the email I could pass along a 40% off 1 item promo code of 5768 too. I know funds are tight all around but if you can support this great Christian organization fighting ObamaCare mandates, that would be awesome.

  • Sober_Thinking

    Wolfie, I like and respect you very much. I want to share with you my testimony and I hope you’ll accept my intent and consider it thoughtfully and prayerfully. I’m not trying to “bash” Catholics at all… but I do believe there is only one path to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ. God bless you my friend.

    I was raised Catholic. I went to Mass (sp?), was baptized (trickle of water on the forehead – not fully emersed), went to Catechism, went through Confirmation, etc. I went to Catholic school from 4th grade all the way up through Sophomore year in High School.

    When I joined the USAF, I met Shane Haley… the “religious guy” in my dorm. He and I formed a friendship through our mutual love of playing guitars. He told me about Jesus and showed me in the Bible about how Jesus came and sacrificed His life for me – how He took my sin and washed it away with His precious blood (because we have all sinned and it must be paid for) and gave me everlasting life as a result – if I would receive Him and by faith accept God’s gracious, merciful gift.

    I remained skeptical and elusive for about 2 years… But Shane persisted (so did the Holy Spirit) and taught me from the Bible (The Word of God) how to be saved… how to accept the Lord as my savior and how I didn’t need a “middle man” (Mary, the saints, a Priest, the Pope, etc.)… how my relationship with Jesus was directly between me and God. I could approach God directly and have a personal relationship with Him.

    This is VERY hard for Catholics to embrace because we have been raised up in tradition and Catholic teachings through our church, our family, our priest, etc. But I tell you, lighting candles for passed away loved ones, praying to Mary or the saints, the Rosary, nuns/priests, Pergatory, etc. – none of that is biblical nor will it get you into Heaven if you don’t accept and know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It’s as simple as the children’s song: “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” Without the faith of a child, we won’t accept the gift from God. And if you have to do ANYTHING other than accept God’s gift through faith… then it’s no longer a gift.

    I mean no disrespect to my Catholic friends, brothers, or sisters… I’m not trying to stir up controversy. Look directly to the Bible for your spiritual foundation and your salvation (look in the book of John or Romans for instance) vs. trusting man or anyone other than Jesus Christ. If you thank Jesus and admit you’re a sinner, and ask Jesus into your heart… then according to the Bible, you will enter into Heaven and your name will be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. It’s pretty much that simple.

    Take some time and pray about this. Ask the Lord to help you know the truth. Search the Bible for your answers and God Himself will help you to see His truth… and He will shed His grace and mercy on you – like He did for all of mankind. When you are born again… you KNOW it! The Holy Spirit fills your heart… you can feel it. And trust me, you will easily know the difference between what you practiced before (Catholicism) and what you embraced through faith (the born again life).

    I say this in love and hope you will search God out and accept Him through faith. This is literally the single most important thing that you can do in life. I sincerely hope and pray that you seek God and accept what He has done for you and me. :)

    • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

      Thank you Sober for that comment… I have some issues with what you said, but I was raised as the kind of Catholic to only try to help those who came to me… Not to push myself or my faith, so I’ll keep them to myself. I’m glad you found God! :-) Each of us make our own path… Some of us go one way… Some another. But as Christians we pray that all of us Christians, regardless of which denomination or “church” make it to Heaven! Because we all try to follow the Word of God and the Promise of Jesus. I can’t think of any more to say. God Bless my friend! That’s it.

      • Sober_Thinking

        I appreciate what you said and thank you for your friendship.

        Here’s a link that I shared with someone else. It is through Billy Graham and says it better than I. I hope you find it useful.

        http://peacewithgod.jesus.net/mobile/

        I am glad to know you and hope whichever way go you, that you find peace and salvation. :)

        • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

          Thank you my friend… Thanks for you kind, understanding ways… Some others could learn a lot from you. I’ll have a look at the link when I’ve time. God bless and good day!

      • colliemum

        God bless you, Wolfie!
        Yes, we all try to follow Him, each in out own stumbling, imperfect ways. But the one thing we must never lose sight of is that it is about Love: His Love for us, our love for each other. Our love for each other will smooth away any differences in the end, of that I am certain!

  • Sober_Thinking

    Spot on – excellent point. :)

  • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Daniel 12:4

    When has knowledge ever been so increased as in this generation? Before September 11, 2001, very few people knew what Islam was let alone what muslims worship. Many are still blind believing the religion of peices meme, but many more are becoming aware.

    Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    • http://onthemark1.blogspot.com/ On The Mark

      religion of pieces

      I had not heard that one. That’s awesome!

  • Conniption Fitz

    Isaiah 10:5 says Assyria (Babylon/Egypt/Islam?) is the rod of discipline when Israel/God’s people fall into sin and rebellion.

    Isaiah 31:8-9 says Assyria will be defeated by the Sword of God not the sword of man.

    I pray Islam will come to repentance and be convicted of its sin – murders, rapes, racism, hatred, pedophilia, aggression, etc.

    The fruit of Islam is the opposite of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. Islam is the spirit of the anti-Christ. That is why it opposes and hates and seeks to obliterate Judeo-Christianity.

  • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

    OK I’m only going to say this once, as I have said it before. If anyone agrees or not, fine. We all have different views on the church. I don’t mean to bash one or the other, and I don’t believe that is the intent of anyone here.
    I have had to “defend” my “fake” religion for most of my life. I worship and try and follow Christ the best I can, I love Jesus. I believe everything the Bible has to say about Him. I know He is and has been the Only One Who has saved me- not because of any good thing I could ever do, but because He loves me, and because I accept Him as my Lord and Savior.

    His Church is NOT a building. He built His church upon Himself- the Rock of Salvation. Peter and the rest of all believers are the stones who make up the church.
    The church of Jesus is the believers. No cathedral, no chapel…. it is the believers!! No matter which “denomination” if one places his or her life in Christ, they are the church.

    I attend a Baptist church. I grew up Anglican. I know Christ more now than ever- It doesn’t matter what building I am in. I am a part of HIS CHURCH.

    I’m done.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

      “gives round of applauds” very well said.

      • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

        :-)

    • las1

      Wow… you have a mixed background.

      My Dad’s family were Catholic, and I was surrounded by Catholics all my life, I was raised United (when the United Church of Canada was still Christian), I accepted Jesus in a Charismatic Anglican church, but consider myself an orthodox (small “O”) Christian.

      Wow… we all come from somewhere don’t we.

      • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

        Raised Anglican, sprinkled as a baby, was introduced to southern Penticostal by ex MIL which scared me. Tried many others, then settled into Baptist. Interesting that when I was going to get Baptized, I was so excited and called my parents. My mom told me that I was ‘baptized’ as a baby already. I had to explain that Baptism is a public declaration of being buried and raised with Jesus, and that no baby, while maybe being dedicated, can make that statement. It was my choice to declare that Jesus is my Savior. She didn’t quite understand. Neither did my dad who was also raised in the United Church of Christ so you know it well… let’s not even get into that one lol.
        While I love the little Baptist church I go to now, I still stand by what I said earlier. It doesn’t matter where we go to church- if we have Christ and the Holy Spirit, we are His church. :-)

        • las1

          The Canadian United Church is different than the UC of Christ. It’s an amalgam of Methodist, Congregational and some Presbyterians. I loved it as a kid in Sunday School…. But now… ugh… they have atheists and wiccans as ministers. It’s a pathetic leftist moribund swamp.

          When I became a real Christian in the Anglican Church, I asked my minister if I should get immersed… he said that my United Church sprinkling as a baby was sufficient acknowledgement of my conversion, even if it did occur before my conversion. Huh! Go figure…

          I eventually got immersed in a Summer Escapes pool in a Pentecostal Church… but really want to go to the Jordan some day. I hope that does not put me on the baptism circuit… maybe even a trip to Međugorje for my Catholic friends…:)

          • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

            It’d be SO cool to get baptized in the Jordan River. :-D

        • Cindy09

          Preach it, Sister!! I was born a Catholic too but thank God, I have been saved by faith in Jesus-Christ!

          • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

            You’re sweet and I am blessed to have you among my sisters!!! xoxoxo Thank you Cindy!

        • Kelly60

          lol…It amuses me when people refer to Pentecostal and “it scares them”…sorry, nothing mean spirited meant at all. I am Assemblies of God (my whole life) which is a creed stemming from Pentecostal and, yes, we are a wild bunch. Your post just made me smile, that’s all.

          • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

            :-) I know a bunch of Assemblies of God folks and I love them. It just was so funny going to my first time at a very charismatic church after being used to the quiet monotonous tone of my Anglican church. It freaked me a little lol, but I got used to some of it. I think that’s why I ended up Baptist- enough demonstrative love of the Lord, more so than what I grew up with, but not quite so flamboyant as AoG. Thanks Kelly60- you made me smile too!

    • Nukeman60

      You put the words to paper that I have always held in my head and my heart. Thank you.

      • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

        YAY! :-D I’ve felt this way for ages Nukefriend. Especially when I’ve had so many family members from all churches believing theirs is the only true church.
        Like sjmom (I think) said above that there will be a lot of surprised people in heaven some day.

        Afternoon Nukebrother! xoxoox

    • colliemum

      You got it, dear ABiC!
      Hugs across the Big Pond!

      • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

        Thanks sister mum :-)

  • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

    Folks…as a seasoned member here, could I please ask that we no longer discuss the issues of Catholic faith versus being born again. Although I’ve interjected my points of view [minimally] I feel that very good friends here are being hurt to some level while those passionate to their faith try to convey a sincere message.

    I won’t be posting any further in here. Just want a group hug ….that’s all. :-)

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000679899592 John Bohler

      Group hug!

    • Orangeone

      Group hug here too!

    • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

      ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((♥))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))s!!!!!!!

      OK- did I miss anyone?!

    • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

      THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

      I don’t do hugs, but I see my friends Ducky & Orangeone have taken care of that! :-)

      • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

        Admit it. Wolfie, you enjoyed that hug.

        • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

          I’m playing the “shultz” card… I know, nothing, I see nothing… I admit nothing! ;-)

          • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

            lol. I’m gonna get you one of these days and you’re gonna like it! :-D

            • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

              Think so, huh? ;-)

              • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

                yup. And you know I always get the last word in. ;-)

          • las1

            Oh c’mon … you’re just one big hug Hoover.

            • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

              THAT made me lol! Hug Hoover. I’ve gotta remember that one! :-D

      • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

        As big around as I am in the sig….you probably couldn’t do it anyway!! Hehe!

        ;-)

    • colliemum

      Long-distance group hug from here in the UK, GiantM!

      • Orangeone

        Hugs to you mum!

    • las1

      Me too!

      • Orangeone

        Luv hugging my neighbor to the North! You really need one too, hear it’s very cold up there.

        • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

          A bit nippy the past couple indeed.

          • Orangeone

            Are you another one of my great Canadian neighbors?

            • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

              Well in Maine soooooo, close enough I would say…lol. I think it was -3 on Friday morning here in Windham.

              • Orangeone

                I’m not sure we have met, read you are a long-time poster, I just joined in 2012.  I’m in MN, we had -10 the other morning,,,,,burrrrrr

  • ltj ltj

    I wonder if the feet are the revived Roman Empire after the “beast” receives it’s mortal wound.

    Look at the size of the feet and toes compared to the legs of the Roman Empire.

    It could be a downsized version – that ends up with only 10 countries.

    For example – say countries start leaving the Euro, this could lead to the beast receiving the mortal wound. Then somehow it’s resuscitated into another form i.e. 10 countries.

    Just a thought.

  • 911Infidel

    An open letter to Rshill7:

    Dude you are spot on. Now me, I spent 12 years in Catholic school. I was baptised in a catholic church as an infant. Had my first communion in second grade; my first confession in 4th grade.

    For the longest time I accepted all the myths that my parents taught me. Like only a priest can understand and interpret the Bible. So we were forbidden to read it except on Easter and Christmas.

    That we can pray someone out of Purgatory. Yet no one ever bothered to consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where Christ makes clear that there is no in-between place.

    Use to pray for the dead. Never considered that King Saul was killed the very next day for the sin of communing with the dead.

    And who are the saints? I never learned that the saints were all born-again people.

    Oh and that Pope thing. I come to find out that the passage that Catholics cite as their reason for the Pope thing, was all about “faith” nothing more. And that Constantine was really the first Pope.

    Then there is the praying to Mary thing. Oh yeah, we most definitely prayed to Mary and bowed to her statue.She was the intercessor like al-manat. al-uzza or al-alat.
    Of course, no one ever explained to us that there is only one name under heaven by which men can be saved…and that is Jesus Christ. He is the intercessor between God and man.

    Once I became born-again I embarked on a almost two-year spiritual journey trying to research my Catholic background and trying to figure out intellectually if the Protestants were right or not.I think I read something like 100 books in my first year of this journey.

    I spent almost every dime that I had on books…I just couldn’t get enough information.
    I even tried going to the Catholic church one Sunday and the Protestant Church the next Sunday. But I could never find the answers to my spiritual questions from any priest or from any of the laity. I found those answers in the Gospel of John.

    Thank goodness the Holy Spirit is a powerful teacher: the giver of all wisdom and discernment.

    Rather than argue Rshill7 points. Why not do what Walid Shoebat did. Open up the Scriptures and read them for yourselves. Hearts and minds that are opened completely will find the truth.

    Jesus Christ didn’t speak in parables for nothing. He spoke in parables so that those that truely wish to know His will for their lives, will get his point. Those that have no such wish, will never find it.

    “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.” Matthew 7:7-8

    • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

      Thank you 911Infidel. Passionately said like all of your thoughtful comments.
      Amen on the last bits too. He is the Word. All we need to know is found in His Word.

      • 911Infidel

        Thank you

    • Rshill7

      “Rather than argue Rshill7 points. Why not do what Walid Shoebat did. Open up the Scriptures and read them for yourselves. Hearts and minds that are opened completely will find the truth.” (911 infidel)

      Had I not read the scriptures for myself I would have no points to argue. If I have been “spot on” it’s from the scriptures alone. I don’t have Rshill7 points, I have scriptural points with a few historic points thrown in. My first Biblical quote on this thread was John 14:6.

      • 911Infidel

        You’re parsing words and you totally misinterpreted what I said. So I’ll state it plainly: I’m in agreement with your points and issued a challenge to those that disagree to go and do a little intellectual inquiry of their own.

        • Rshill7

          The intro to your post said, “An open letter to Rshill7″, so, I naturally took you at your word and read it as if it were actually to me.

          • 911Infidel

            The title is misleading on purpose. The body of my posit was a thoughtful defense of your points. Read it again.

            • Rshill7

              My answer is straight forward on purpose. I read your post the first time, that’s how I arrived at the portions I quoted.

              If I misunderstood you though, that was not on purpose, and I admire you for finding your way through all the Catholic ~stuff~ to Christ himself. It is highly commendable and worthy of much respect.

              This has been a thread where even those who agreed wholeheartedly with me still found a way to nevertheless criticize my methods and/or motives. Since you have explained yourself, I will not count you among those. Now I will give you the belated “Thanks for that” which you deserve.

              • 911Infidel

                I wouldn’t go so far to say that I found Christ. Its more like He found me. I was just doing my job as a FO attached to an infantry BN in a far off tropical place.

                Never tell a grunt ” Come to me all ye who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). Cause that grunt might actually identify with such a statement and quite possibly accept Christ. Well at least this one did.

                The Word of God is like a cool drink of water from a canteen. (I believe that attribution belongs to Gen Krulak).

                And thanks.

                • PVG

                  Bless you and thank you for your service my friend!

                • 911Infidel

                  Thank you.

              • las1

                Hey… I didn’t criticize… all I said was that Michigan is not really a state. :)

                It’s a Catholic State… is it not?

                OK.. ok… I’m gone… I’ll row back to Manitoulin.

    • las1

      Thanks for that 911…I’ve read about and seen many RC’s who have a Walid Shoebat type experience like yours. Scripture is the only thing they can reliably fall back on when they tray to square tradition with the Bible.

      • 911Infidel

        You’re welcome.

    • TheresaAK

      Fantastic post 911Infidel…..very similar testimony for someone in my immediate family.

      I enjoyed your testimony immensely.

      Thank you and God Bless you.

      • 911Infidel

        Thanks. And God Bless you as well.

  • Watchman74

    I believe Islam does have a part to play in the end-times, particularity in the Magog Invasion, but I’m still not sold on a Muslim Anti-Christ. For one the AC declares himself God, this is a no no in Islam. Two, the Jews would ever accept a Muslim as there Messiah. Third, the Islamic world is behind everyone else economically and militarily, they don’t have the infrastructure to be a dominant world power.

    Europe on the other hand is already a revived Roman Empire. They came together politically and economically, and talks of a common military. They have a common currency, that coincidentally depicts a woman riding a beast. The have unelected officials running the EU, with talks of a super president that resembles a Ceaser. Recently they appointed a senator for life, just like in ancient Rome. Everything is in place. I’m aware there going through economic difficulties just like everyone else right now, but it was through economic turmoil that Hitler came to power. I think it will also be true with the AC.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like Walid. But I think too much time is spent looking at Islamic eschatology which is really just a corruption of biblical eschatology.

    • ltj ltj

      And if they continue to strengthen their ties with NATO this could fill in the military weaknesses they’ve had in the past.

      • Watchman74

        Yup, I think Libya was a turning point. The war in Libya exposed the shortcomings of NATO in its inability to overthrow a two-bit dictator, coupled with supply issues and it’s dependence on American weapons and intel. Many in Europe are asking if the old Cold War NATO hasn’t outlived it’s usefulness and it’s time for a common EU military.

  • 911Infidel

    If you reaseach all of Walid’s points, you’ll find that his reasoning is sound. I checked all of the references that he uses and sure enough all of them are Islamic countries. Even if you go back to their OT names. That includes their tribal names.

    The wounded beast that comes back, fits with the Ottoman empire and the current revival of the Khalifa that is in progress.

    Rome is a kingdom by the sea and most definitely produces wine that intoxicates. But it is not a kingdom by the sea. And if you substitute the word “oil” for the word “wine”, prophecy makes perfect sense.

    I spent years studying Revelation and Daniel. I poured through my Pastor’s library of commentaries; took correspondence courses, went to Bible college, etc, etc. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that what I was reading was wrong.

    I prayed for a teacher to come along who could make these crooked paths straight again. And along came Walid and Joel Richardson. A former Jew and a former Muslim. And why not? He used a former Jew to write the lionshare of the NT. Why not add to the eclectic mix by also using a former Muslim too?

    Rome and Europe are not mentioned in Judgement in the Scriptures. But Islamic countries are mentioned in both Old and NT prophecy.

    I’m glad to see that many churches are beginning to see the light and are adopting Walid and Joel’s views on prophecy. Its not really a “new” view. This view has persisted for many years. It was the prevailing view in the 16th and 17th centuries. By that time Europe had fought and won many wars with Islam and Biblical scholars were very familiar with its teachings.

    I agree with Walid that the Bible is an Eastern book; not a Western one. I think that one gains a better understanding of Scripture when one adopts that mindset.

  • 911Infidel

    I posted this before. For those interested in some advanced prophecy reading try this link:
    http://archives.joelstrumpet.com/?p=4373

  • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

    I have one Biblical quote that came to mind reading just a tiny part of this thread (I normally read all comments but this topic is… You can read some more of my comments below if you care to.)

    John 11:35: “Jesus Wept”

    That is all.

    • http://www.crossworksme.com/ GiantM

      Huh…I just read that a couple days ago! Now I know why. :)

  • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

    Tell you one thing. A long while ago, I considered nominating myself as a volunteer moderator here. Reading down some of this thread. I’m wondering how any moderator is going to handle some of the discussion, which seems to have gotten very personal and vindictive for some people. Wild personal attacks on other people’s faith… sigh. Thank goodness I’m not the moderator… Least half the discussion here disappear! LOL! Come on, you have to laugh, else you cry. God bless you readers… I don’t care if you are a Protestant or a Catholic… We are CHRISTIANS FIRST! Wish more would remember that!

    • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

      Trust me Wolfie, I’ve been wrestling with it.
      I might be a lousy moderator because I ‘know’ the regular folks here so well. I can’t moderate on this one, and if Scoop fires me for it, I’ll understand.

      • http://tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie

        Oh crap, did my post sound like a criticism? I never meant it that way, I’m trying to praise you. Nothing I’m saying is coming out right today.

        let me try again. I’m glad I’m not a moderator today because it’s a very hard job and you and the others do a great and often thankless job. Scoop better NOT fire you! You’re not only one of the best posters, you’re the best moderator as well.

        There, I hope that’s better.

        • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

          I didn’t see it as a criticism at all Wolfie. I was just stating my case. :-) I don’t know either about your sweet compliments- but hopefully folks understand sometimes now with threads like these, if they don’t get moderated, that’s why.

          I really would make a lousy for real Sheriff, even if I do love my job here.

      • jrt1031

        The tone is easy to misread on a subject like this where some are very passionate. As a moderator and a reader I think we all need to learn to ignore those opinons that cause anger. Sometimes the best response to someones offensiveness is to ignore and not fuel the fire with attention. This why its so easy to skip over at the touch of a button.

    • las1

      Wolfie… it is possible to attack the faith and not the person… and to do that even vehemently. Although I don’t see it as attacking the faith but refuting it’s claims. When someone tells me how terrible Luther was, even if they may have some of it wrong, I don’t feel personally attacked. Maybe because I don’t go to the Church of Luther, I don’t have to defend him… I defend the articles of faith or doctrines.

      I hope you can look at it this way… Iron sharpens Iron. The discourse helps you to understand why you believe what you believe when you are forced to defend or refute something.

      I love it when my Catholic opponents contradict my view… it forces me to consider and to adjust if necessary.

      But it’s when it veers into personal attack… then that’s no so good… but I would not want to see certain topics banned because some may be offended or hurt.

      Now… if only we can get Scoop to post an anti-Obama worshiping video or something, and let it fly…

  • BeyondPolls

    I just don’t know how Islam is going to make peace with the Jews. The Temple has to be built and the Dome of the Rock is blocking it.

  • Rshill7

    Have the Catholics here defended their religion any less vociferously than I have defended mine? It certainly doesn’t look that way to me. If the Catholics didn’t attempt to defend their beliefs, they would have no reason to be Catholic would they? If I didn’t defend mine I would be equally bereft of reason regarding what I believe.

    However, continue to direct any and all vitriol and criticism my way, even those that agree with me.

    The sense of fairness from many of you seems quite a bit different than mine too. Perhaps instead of trying to stand for something, what many people appreciate is one who will fall for anything. I will not be that guy. I wouldn’t expect any of you to be that guy (or girl) either.

    If anyone wants to denigrate what I believe or be offended that I don’t believe as they do, that’s their right. I have no problem saying why I believe the way I do. I also have no problem saying why I do not believe the way you do, or any problem arguing it back and forth.

    I do have a problem with being slandered. I have a problem with you manufacturing venom and putting in my pocket as if it were born there. As you look at me in disgust, take at least a wee glance at yourselves.

    • http://no-apologies-round2.blogspot.com/ AmericanborninCanada

      I look at mybrotherbear who has sharp claws and a genuine love and concern for his friends and fellow people.

      I can’t help but think just now from two of my favorite stories- The Horse and His Boy and Prince Caspian.
      I’m lousy at comparing, but seems to me in both of those stories, Aslan used his claws. Painfully, but out of love.

      Mybear, I have seen your concern and love for others here- both gentle times and more vocal times. I hope folks can understand that ourbear is who he is and accept him, and accept all of us at all times not just the good times.

      If I’ve stepped out of bounds here with you, I cringe as I wait for a claw swipe-
      I love mybrotherbear.

    • las1

      Pfft… what can you expect from a Michigander? Michigan’s not really a state anyway, even Canada puts up a border to keep them out.

      … as I quickly run north back across the border to make my escape… :)

    • JoeMontana16

      Are you Church of Christ?

      • Rshill7

        No.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JT6RK4NQME54FA3FVYTTHLTRTQ Southnsoul

    It’s certainly not something we should argue over, but I personally believe like, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and other Bible prophecy teachers that there will be a European, revived Roman Empire, out of which the Anti-Christ and his system will arise.

    I’ve been watching the signs of this coming together for many years and nearly came out my seat on December the 13th, when I received a Breaking News tweet, which those who follow this interpretation of biblical prophecy, will also find significant…

    “EU (European Union) finance ministers have reached a deal that would bring many of the continent’s banks under a single supervisor.” (From the Wall Street Journal)

  • JoeMontana16

    Im not a Catholic and believe differently I guess I would say but if you’re trying to change someone’s mind concerning eternity then bashing them and what they believe certainly isn’t the way to get it done. Jesus wouldn’t use this tactic to sway people towards Him. Just remember that. It can be said respectfully. I have a problem with The Church of Christ. I have strong feelings for their beliefs such as baptism and salvation. Guess I should shut up cause those folks will really get you going big time.

    • Rshill7

      Perhaps you missed the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and lawyers. You also may have missed the way he physically scourged the money changers in the temple and physically turned their tables over.

      • JoeMontana16

        I hadn’t seen any Catholics do any money changing in the Temple here lately or since I’ve been alive for that matter. If you believe these people aren’t saved you are making them less likely to succeed. Maybe your disdain for them is so bad that you want them in Hell. I’m not saying that you do but it could be misconstrued as such. You’re also missing the fact that Jesus tore the place up in one instance. The other folks he came at them with love and humility. It worked. You are not. I would swear you were Church of Christ. Also I know what it takes to get saved. Only one way. There are Catholics who feel the same way. So they’d be saved.

    • Rshill7

      What you are also failing to note is that these are Catholics I and some others are arguing with. They are not non-believers or atheists. They think they have everything right already. They also think they are the one true church. They also think Islam is another way to heaven. Big difference in Catholics and non-believers.

      Catholics of yesterday and today are much more like the Pharisees and Sadducees, not like unbelievers. They fancied that they had all the answers already. That they were right and Christ was wrong.

      Christ called them snakes, vipers, empty clouds, blind guides, hypocrites etc. I neither called anyone names like that nor did I physically touch, whip, or overturn anyone’s tables. I did use the word ignorance and hypocrisy as I recall. Seems fairly tame compared to Christ’s actual words and actual deeds, which are quite plain to any who cares to read them.

      But then, I’m speaking of Jesus Himself, not a man-made caricature of Him.

  • iatros

    Jonathan Edwards was President of Yale University, not Princeton. John Witherspoon was President of The College of New Jersey, later to be named Princeton, and signatory to the Declaration of Independence.

  • http://twitter.com/BobMacchia1 Bob Macchia

    God said, “man will destroy himself,” and the Muslim extremists are the start of our destruction. We are in the end times.

    • Rshill7

      Could you please provide a scripture reference for that?

  • jrt1031

    I think those of us that know God know him in our own way and not the way of someones interpretation of someone elses interpretation of the original interpretaion…….. Stories get twisted up when you accept opinions other than your own formed opinon.

    So, read the Bible, talk to God yourself and let him tell you how you should and should not interpret mans written words.

    I was born Catholic and still find comfort in its community. I can take and leave what I want from it. I have a sense of freedom in the religion and dont feel controlled. This is what religion should be. If you dont feel a sense of free will in your religion then that is God telling you it is wrong and to change.

  • Cindy09

    Group hug here from an old wretched sinner, saved only by grace! Love y’all!! :)

  • Nick Beckwith

    I can save you all a lot of time and confusion. There will be no beast. That is because that prophecy referred to Nero Caesar. It ALREADY HAPPENED. FULFILLED. PAST. I am amazed that so many Christians ignore the Bible’s numerous cues: “THIS generation shall not pass away until ALL these things are accomplished”, “There are some STANDING HERE who shall NOT TASTE DEATH until…”, Revelation is bookended with “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him show to his servants the things that must SOON take place.” and “Surely I am coming SOON”. Low information Christians read these and think, “Oh, SOON! It’s coming SOON!” Update: these things were written 2,000 years ago. Soon to THEM, not you. The standard response is, “Yeah, but with God 1 day is as a thousand years and vicey-versey!” That is an abuse of that verse. In context it simply meant that God was no less likely to keep his promises if much time has passed. It didn’t give god liberty to speak deceptively. And it doesn’t magically make “soon” mean thousands of years. And certainly not “some of you people here, right now, the ones I’m talking to, yes, you, some of YOU will not yet be dead when it happens” mean thousands of years after they are dead. Or that he was mystically speaking through the centuries to the believers of today. Which generation was to know that they were the ones he was “really” speaking to? This is the kind of sloppy exegesis that dispensationalism has forced people to engage in. People think this is what Christians have always believed. It’s NOT! Dispensationalism is only a couple of decades old, and unfortunately widely propagated through Ryrie and Scofield study bibles. It is one of the greatest errors in the church today, based on 3 WRONG assumptions: 1. That Israel and the church are entirely distinct with distinct destinies (the New Testament teaches that the church is the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy), 2. That there will be a pre-tribulation rapture (hint: the tribulation is also a 1st century event – DONE), and 3. The TERRIBLE claim of a “literal” hermeneutic, that forces all kinds of figurative and symbolic passages to be taken in an artificially literal way, and which is not applied consistently even by dispensationalists (anyone think Jesus is literally a door, with hinges and what-not?). Listen, it is not blessed to insist Jews will be given the literal land of Israel. It was a type, a foreshadowing, of the fact that God would give his people the WHOLE WORLD! That’s BETTER than a dusty middle-eastern piece of property! It is not a good thing to go backward and reinstitute animal sacrifice – Christ has come, and his sacrifice is effective where those could never be. The fulfillment is INFINITELY better than the type. But people are still hoping for the imperfect precursors.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7OWWEPNVTA2PBV6IRNJ2LER2TA Moreno

      What…huh? So by that ‘logic’, because the Bible was written 2,000 years ago, none of it applies now. The first coming of Christ was his birth. Are you implying he came back a second time since then?

      There were eight beast empires referred to in Naebakanezer’s dream. Seven of those have past. Nazi Germany being the last. There’s one more remaining. But whatever helps you sleep better at night.

      • Poncho4ever

        Oh yeah, NOW I remember that Bible verse that mentioned Nazi Germany. Oh wait, I don’t, because it DOESN’T EVER MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO IT, literally or otherwise. It couldn’t be possible that you’ve misidentified some of the empires in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream? Where do you come up with 8, anyway? In the passage, as even in the image of the statue above, there are 4 kingdoms, the 5th is the Kingdom of Christ, established during the reign of the Roman (4th) empire, that great stone that smashes the others to bits. Unless you mean Daniel 7, which is again about 4 kingdoms, and says specifically that the ten horns are kings, not additional empires. In each case, the 4th kingdom is Rome. In NO way do either of these refer to any empire beyond the first coming of Christ. Your conclusion is false, that is NOT the natural conclusion of my logic. I said, when the Bible SAYS “soon”, “this generation”, “shortly”, “some standing here will not taste death”, etc., then it applies to THEN, not 2,000 years later. That in no way implies that NONE of it is for today. You lack any understanding of what the Bible means by a “coming” or parousia. The word is used a number of times to simply mean his presence as evidenced by judgments on nations. That is the kind of “coming” he had in the first century, when he judged Israel and put an end to their sacrifices forever, the clear sign that his was the only sacrifice ever needed. It was not “the” second coming, which will be at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. Here’s a site that might help you out on your obvious confusion about Daniel. I don’t agree with everything on it, but it is pretty clear on the prophecies in Daniel 2 and 7. http://www.forerunner.com/eschatology/X0003_3._Premil_Rebuttal.html What I don’t get is how you dispensationalists are so over-confident to the point of cockiness about your interpretation of some very cryptic prophecies. Yours isn’t the only possible interpretation, and it happens to be wrong. This is called “newspaper exegesis”. You look at today’s news, then run to your Bible and interpret it based on what was on CNN. Instead, you should interpret history and your own time according to Scripture. See, the news determines how you read Scripture. Shouldn’t Scripture determine how you read the world? You’re just so sure you’re so important that every page of the Bible MUST have been talking about you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.lemons.167 Michael Lemons

    Daniel 8 and 11, speaks of the king of the north(Grecia) who in the end of years will join himself with the daughter(religion) of the king of the south(Persia), Iran is the only thing standing in the way, but we have been in talks with them. If you google a map of the Persian empire you will see it has just about been reformed. Isaiah 14 speaks of the Assyrian empire which is almost the same countries as the old Persian empire. only thing standing in the way is Syria, but the Obama administration is in the process of assuring the rise of the muslim brotherhood there as well. All the other countries are currently under US control. Egypt, Lybia, Cush, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Meshech and Tubal is Turkey and we just sent Patriot missles there through NATO(North Atlantic Treaty Organization). Obama is Gog ie. the Assyrian, ie. Appollyon, ie Abbadon. As for a revived Roman empire coming out of Europe, where did the the Citizens of the United States migrate from???? American history class I took, said Europe.
    Much Love
    Michael

  • Discuss7

    Walid has good points. Ishmael the son of Abraham always wanted to be the people blessed by Abraham in replacement Isaac. Naturally, his descendents are the arab people and the arabs of today sound like just Ishmael’s mother Hagar; to take the blessing in the stead of Isaac. Well, it did not happen. Thank God. Jealousy is the base for the antisemitic plan of satan and the arab islamic brotherhood.