ZoNation: Pro-death Democrats need to stop accusing Republicans of extremism

A short one from Zo but a great one as he defends Mourdock and in doing so explains who’s really extreme and who isn’t:

The mainstream media is doing its best to make GOP candidates like Indiana’s Richard Mourdock appear to be pro-rape. Is there no low to which the Democrats won’t stoop? Find out on this ZoNation as AlfonZo Rachel explains the logic behind the opposition to abortion.

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  • SineWaveII

    Gotta love Alfonzo, awesome as usual.

  • Dukehoopsfan

    ‘Zo kills the libs once again.

  • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

    I’m pro choice, but I don’t think there was anything wrong with what Mourdock said, at least from a pro-life perspective (which I used to fervently hold).

    Stripping aside the religious part of his answer, he’s saying he values life. And that regardless of how one’s life begins, it should be protected — or at least it shouldn’t be taken away by another.

    It’s a defensible philosophical position. To pretend he was in any way pro-rape is a bald-faced lie.

    • Galatiansch2vs20

      What changed your mind about the inalienable right of the baby to live?

      I hope you will watch this documentary (short) and tell me what you think:

      • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

        At some point, I de-mystified the value of life per se within my own mind, and came to value subjective experience more.

        With that in mind, one sees that living involves enormous pain in addition to pleasure. Regardless of the mix of both, if one lives long enough for consciousness and intelligence to form, one also lives long enough to understand that they will die and so will everyone and everything they ever knew and loved.

        Probably as a sort of “natural-selection derived anti-suicide/apathy mechanism”, humans have evolved a tendency to believe whatever religious ideas — wildly divergent religious ideas — they are taught in childhood and beyond. Often these include an afterlife for one’s self and, probably more importantly, loved ones — to create the illusion that life doesn’t end at death, and to keep individuals in the species motivated to survive and reproduce.

        “Be fruitful and multiply”, etc.

        However, this is creating new beings to be born, live and struggle a time, and however much they are enjoying their life — pleasure, genetics, luck, etc., being extremely unequally distributed — to perish anyway, their consciousness to disappear.

        Further, children who are not wanted by their parents are more likely to have a worse upbringing, and a worse future and therefore subjective experience, than children who are wanted.

        Finally, a very young zygote at least probably has no consciousness whatsoever. Since I don’t think life is anything more than physics, I don’t have any ethical problem with ending such a life. It isn’t even conscious and therefore not important.

        If it was important, well it’s odd that “God” has set up a current system where the vast majority of humans that have ever been created get spontaneously (naturally) aborted in utero without any intervention by leftists and abortion doctors whatsoever.

        Valuing subjective experience over life leads to radically different ethical conclusions, and I believe it’s the main difference between pro-choice and pro-life people, by and large. Even though they are probably not aware of this fact.

        Basically, life can be Hell and is of mixed value anyway. There’s no afterlife to strive for (and just as well too, since apparently most people who don’t prostrate themselves before the right God based on flimsy fourth-hand evidence and farcical magic stories mixed in with horrible God-approved barbarism are destined to spend an eternity in Hell, being tortured forever for no particular reason, other than God “loves us” and can’t have us near Him since we said, “Meh,” to his religion).

        I haven’t made my reply as concise and focused as could be, but maybe I’ve expressed the gist.

        • Rshill7

          Right. It’s garbage.

          “Since I don’t think life is anything more than physics…”

          You have much work to do weedhopper. In other words, you’re an Atheist who believes that everything came from nothing and the big bang was an effect without a cause. That’s just dumb.

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

            You don’t accurately understand my positions regarding cosmology, but you do inadvertently touch upon my main point: different premises lead to different conclusions.

            • Rshill7

              Right. Incorrect math formulas lead to consistently wrong answers too.

              Enlighten me on your cosmology if you will.

              • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                Well things come into and out of existence from nothing all the time as far as we know. It seems to be a basic quality of the universe.

                Provided the universe is flat (and other elements aside from mass, energy, and related units like momentum balance out, such as charge, strangeness, etc.), it violates no laws of physics.

                But anyway, your belief is God came from nothing and/or always existed. It isn’t a valid solution to any philosophical problem. It’s just kicking the can further down the road and actually compounding the problem.

                • Rshill7

                  “Well things come into and out of existence from nothing all the time…”

                  Name one.

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd


                • Rshill7

                  Photon: 1. : a unit of intensity of light at the retina equal to the illumination received per square millimeter of a pupillary area from a surface having a brightness of one candle per square meter. (Merriam-Webster. Me and those guys went to different schools together)

                  Photons are a measurable component of light 🙂

                  Are you saying light can come from nothing and go nowhere?

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  Yes, in essence.

                  Google the term “virtual particle” and read up.

                • Rshill7


                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  It’s theoretical.

                  As is cosmology, for that matter, obviously. As is (are) the Creation story(ies) in Genesis (1 and 2, respectively).

                  But quantum physics is the most rigorously tested and experimentally verified theory in physics.

                  And a consequence of Quantum Field Theory is that certain particles come in and out of existence, all the time, all throughout space and the universe itself, and then anihilate each other, either through meeting their (often contemperously created antiparticles) (although not photons which is its own antiparticle) antiparticles.

                  As long as the sum total of mass, energy, charge, strangeness, spin, etc. = 0, the laws of physics are preserved.

                  Much as I suspect happened with the universe and why I always dismissed much of Stephen Hawking’s earlier conjectures (as well as the inadequate observational astronomical data at the time). It always made sense that the universe had to be flat if the big bang theory was true.

                  Google “flat universe” if you want to see the concept I’m talking about.

                • Nukeman60

                  As long as the sum total of mass, energy, charge, strangeness, spin, etc. = 0, the laws of physics are preserved.‘ – s

                  Nothing is created or destroyed, only transferred. Mass and energy are two forms of the same thing. On a human level, would you say a toddler is destroyed when it becomes a child, who is then destroyed when he becomes a teen?

                  Energy={mass times speed of light (squared)} / the square root of {1- [velocity of object(squared)/ speed of light (squared)]}.

                  It merely transforms from mass to energy and even though it may look different, nothing is lost and nothing is gained. Even matter-antimatter collisions do not annihilate each other. They merely transform from particle to wave form. The photon is a prime example of that.

                  Also, even though there are still many theories out there about the shape of the Universe and exactly how many dimensions there are, nothing has been determined for you to declare that it is a ‘flat universe’. In fact, of the 9 or 10 possibilities out there, it may well be shaped like either a torus, a soccer ball, or a Vuzuzela, depending on whether the Omega (density of the Universe) is zero, positive or negative. If you have any enlightening information, I believe the Physicists would love to hear it.

                  As I said, the more we know, the more we know we don’t know.

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  I appreciate the thought you gave to that comment.

                  However, as long as both the exact positive and a negative of a thing are created (including adding up all of the constituent and/or equivalent components), it appears they both can come into existence out of nothing.

                • Nukeman60

                  There’s your fallacy – it appears. It appeared the Earth was flat. It appeared the Sun, Moon and stars rotated around the Earth. It appeared the molecule was the smallest particle. The more we learn, the more we know we were wrong in our assumptions.

                  Dark matter cannot be seen, but it’s there. God can live in more dimensions than we can observe. The Higgs boson exists, but we have never found it, yet. Does that mean it doesn’t exist?

                  Science doesn’t measure spiritual things, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there. A speedometer doesn’t measure tire pressure, either. You do yourself an injustice limiting yourself to boundaries. Look beyond what we already think we know. That’s the only way things are discovered.

                • John3_3

                  I’m not sure there is a better application for this scripture than the current conversation:

                  Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
                  22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
                  23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

                • Nukeman60

                  It’s only kicking the can down the road because you insist on beginning and end. You insist there must be a beginning and end to all things because you can’t fathom unending being.

                  You remind me of the example of a 2-dimensional being observing a sphere. To him it looks like a circle and will always look like a circle because he can’t leave his own domain, or think in dimensions more than him.

                  I majored in Physics all my life. It does not detract from the existence of God. In fact, it enhances the existence of God. We learn more and more about Physics every day. We learn more and more about the Universe every day. The more we learn, the more we realize that we know so little.

                  When we think something comes from nothing, it’s only because we don’t know what that supposed nothing is. Just having limited knowledge does not make us more knowing. Physics teaches us that there is so much more that we don’t know than there is that we do know.

                  It’s tough to come to conclusions with so little knowledge.

        • Nukeman60

          You assume there is no consciousness at early stages of life. What brings you to this conclusion? How early in life can you rememeber? Does it mean that is the point at which your life began? If someone didn’t think you had any consciousness, could they end your life?

          You also assume there is no afterlife. What brings you to this conclusion, as well? Just because you don’t know? Or just because it helps define the conclusions that require that assumption in the first place?

          Lastly, just because life might be “hell”, does that make ending it better? And does that give any one person the right to end someone else’s life to make their own easier? Are you advocating suicide for people that have it tougher than others, as well?

          These are indeed tough questions that require us all to consider thoroughly, but using a philosophy of not knowing some facts to determine someone else’s fate seems a bit disingenuous to me.

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

            “You assume there is no consciousness at early stages of life. What brings you to this conclusion?”

            I didn’t actually assume that. I said, “a very young zygote at least probably has no consciousness whatsoever”.

            Be that as it may, it probably has no consciousness as a result of not having a developed nervous system.

            However, I am actually far more accepting of widespread consciousness in nature than most people, and even more so than most far-right conservatives.

            I suspect that insects have consciousness, for example, albeit different and limited, and that consciousness is part of the decision-making process, not limited to humans.

            In short, PETA has a point, however much I do in fact laugh at them.

            And I do. Just because.

            • Learnedsmtn2day

              Operating word being probably !

        • life is an opportunity… opportunity to do what? Accept Christ as your LORD and savior. To love G_D with all your heart, mind, soul and strength..(para) We exist to have a one on one relationship with the Creator of the Universe! In the process of that to live our lives as Christ did or as close as possible for each one of us is different and come to Christ at different times. Good luck in your search for HIM.

          • John3_3

            God isn’t lost. We don’t search for Him. But, I know what you mean, IMaTelaU!

        • famouswolf

          Ah, you have the ‘Problem With Pain’.

          If you are still in just a little doubt, may I recommend C. S. Lewis. He addresses these things quite well.

          By the way, I’ve been where you are. Perhaps the only difference being I always believed (I HAD to) that somewhere there would be an ultimate arbiter, a way all the scales would be balanced. It just took a long time to admit to myself that that arbiter was God, and was there and available all the time.

          It’s called faith- although you can never understand the reasons or causes for everything, God does. It’s above our pay grade, you might say.

          But I used to have a sad little refrain that went, ‘life is pain, the absence of pain is not life, therefore death is the antithesis of pain’. It’s the road to suicide. God is the road to life. Please think about it some more, and check out Lewis’ logic regarding Chrisianity. You might be very glad you did.

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

            I appreciate the kind thoughts. I’ve certainly read Lewis’s excellent fiction and atrocious, if easy-to-cling to if you want-to, most-cited non-fiction work.

            I was aghast at reading it — actually looking for a religious solution to life’s problems at the time — and realizing how vacuous his argument truly was.

            • famouswolf

              Well, that and some of your other responses like laughing at one of Rshill’s posts, tells me all I need to know. Never mind, and good luck. With your level of delusion you’ll need it.

              You have my sympathy if not empathy.

              • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                While other people have pointed out other logical flaws with C.S. Lewis’s core argument in Mere Christianity, the most damning — as William Lane Craig noted — is Lewis sets up a false dilemma.

                It’s just a more-complicated-than-average strawman argument.

            • Rshill7

              It was certainly not as vacuous as your critique of it was.

            • Galatiansch2vs20

              If you dig deep within yourself, you will find in the end that you are looking within a broken cistern which holds no water. Bring your grief over your loved one to God, come in a spirit of repentance from your rebellion against Him, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and drink from the only One Who offers living water. No one else can heal the heart-wrending, gut-wrenching grief you feel in the loss of your loved one.

        • Infidel4Ever

          You didn’t “de-mystify” the value of life, you just de-valued life. Even a zygote is still a human being. Life can be hell but every one fights to the last breath to preserve it.

          Typical atheist pseudo intellectual poppycock.

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

            You’re close, but not quite there.

            I de-valued it precisely as a result of ceasing to imbue life with mystical significance.

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

            “Life can be hell but every one fights to the last breath to preserve it.”

            So do crickets.

            It isn’t because they’ve thought about the matter objectively and determined this is the best course of action, it’s because they’re genetically programmed to (through natural selection).

        • Galatiansch2vs20

          You’ve been pretty clear, I think. You have subjectively rejected what is clearly evident to all of mankind- that there is a God, the Creator of heaven and earth. You have rejected Him and exchanged the truth for a lie, creating a god to suit yourself.

          You may have forgotten the subjective God-given experience of guilt that comes with the murder of the baby.

          And you decided it should be up to men and women as to whether or not the life formed by God within the woman is allowed to live or die, rather than recognizing that God kills and makes alive. When those spontaneous, natural abortions occur, that is God’s decision, not mankind’s.

          ‘The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.’
          I Samuel 2:6 ESV

          So, is there some hurt in your life that you believe that one should not allow themselves to come to know and love their unborn child?

          If you are wrong (and you are- you have chosen what you believe, but that doesn’t mean what you have chosen is based on truth)… and if you continue to hold to your position of rebellion against God until death, you will sadly be very much aware that this is not all there is to life, that the spirit lives on.

          It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that, the judgement. (Hebrews 9:27) Those who in their own wickedness reject their Creator, the One Who fashioned and formed them, Jesus Christ, and the AMAZING sacrifice made to reconcile people to God while we were yet His enemies will be cast in the lake of fire, to experience deserved eternal torment as they continue to gnash their teeth in rebellion against the One Who formed them in the womb.

          Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Who lived a perfect life, died a substitutionary atoning death on the cross, taking away our sins, taking the wrath of God for our sins on Himself, was buried and rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures will be saved and be passed from death to life eternal with our Lord.

        • Learnedsmtn2day

          philosophy like yours will bring another holocaust.

      • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

        I’ve seen that movie before.

        At the time I watched it, I probably actually agreed with Ray Comfort on abortion, although not much else.

        Now, it’s not much at all.

        • Galatiansch2vs20

          Is there some event that precipitated your rejection of the pro-life position you once fervently held?

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd


            • Rshill7

              What is it?

            • Galatiansch2vs20

              Are you open to sharing what it was?

              • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                I lost someone important to me and realized that the deep pain of living can outweigh the joys. That the experience of life really can be a net negative.

                And if it isn’t for me in the end, it is for some people. Definitely.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  I am sorry for your loss. You are right that deep pain can sometimes in the tidal wave of feelings seem to overshadow any joys in life.

                  But the experience of life does not necessitate a net negative if you have a relationship with your Creator. It is in the deepest waters and fiery trials of life that the Christian often forges the most meaningful deepness to that relationship, drinking in God’s closeness and comfort, which are most keenly felt as we are driven to depend on Him alone.

                • Rshill7

                  Then strive to make it a net positive, and don’t ever give up 🙂

    • Nukeman60

      Liberals like to label things so that they sound good on the surface. Pro-choice refers to the woman. Try to put it in the prospective of the baby (or baby-to-be, if you will) and see what it sounds like. It’s either pro-life or pro-death. See the difference?

      • Galatiansch2vs20

        And even more specifically pro-life or pro-murder/pro-deceived killing.

        • Nukeman60

          Exactly. I agree. No one would want to be pro-murder, which of course is what we do to these children. So, as per the way they do things, Liberals make it sound better so we won’t feel guilty about what we do. That is the choice.


        Or, think of yourself, however many years ago it was when you were that embryo… And, then tell me your answer… to the question: life or death?

        • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

          If I could go back, I’d have chosen death.

          At some point, assuming chance doesn’t intervene, I intend to choose death.

          • deeme

            Now I’m sad for you..I know that’s not what you want but I sense something hopeless in you choice..

            • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

              Life is fundamentally a hopeless condition, however much human psychology evolved to get us to overlook this fact.

              We can fight battles and win victories, but our eventual defeat — indeed, our non-existence — is written from the moment sperm meets egg.

              That is the beginning of all our pains and sorrows.

              • deeme

                You know I often said if I didn’t believe in everlasting life, you would be exactly who I am..but through my life , and I don’t talk about it often ,God has shown his face to me ..In so many powerful ways..Days before my first home was going to flood me with three small children..I was rocking my youngest in my arms and heard a voice tell me to prepare..I watched all night as the small creek behind our house turned into a fast running river.. We got out with our lives and nothing more..I have a picture of myself sitting on the front porch with my three babies…like little ducks and over my head to the back is a cherub and by my side is an archangel.I’m no one special I just have my eyes wide open.I don’t care what people think of me when I tell my stories I rarely do this may be the third time..all I know is they are there for people like you..I saw my grandfather float to heaven with an angel years after he passed away..Please try to have faith and know there is more then this life here…

              • Galatiansch2vs20

                You say ‘human psychology’, which is human study of the soul. But God has searched and known our hearts. He is the One Who planned the number of our days before there was one of them (see Psalm 139). The beginning of our pain is that we were born in sin, death having entered the world through the first Adam. But you are rejecting that there is a second Adam- the man Christ Jesus, Who conquered death and bids all to come unto Him who are weak and heavy-laden and He promises rest.

                I sense from other of your posts you are a depressed person, holding on because of the love of another and because you still derive some pleasure in life, however slim. I want you to know the God Who comforts the depressed, Sam. I want you to find the real reason for living!

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  I’m pretty stoked about the upcoming election.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  This election too shall pass, however. I’m glad you have taken an interest in something- that is important. But in the scheme of things, with your fatalist philosophy, this too is meaningless. I want you to experience the deepest relationship a person ever has, with the God Who will never leave, nor forsake His own children.

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  I wouldn’t say it’s meaningless.

                  I think that’s an oversimplification, but by no means your fault — it’s an oversimplification made by many nihilists.

                  I don’t think there’s any reason to think that something lacks meaning just because it isn’t infinite.

                  Is it pointless to have some money just because you don’t have all the money in the world?

                  I don’t think so. You can enjoy having some money. Use it for yourself, for others, or both.

                  Likewise time.

                  I’m saying — and I strongly believe it is factually true — that the “end state” (for lack of a better term; you may as well call it the beginning state or the null state since it describes non-existence: ‘0’) — is the same.

                  So regardless of whether one has a good or bad life, long or short life, is a morally kind or cruel person, it all ends up the same.

                  But the interim period has some meaning, I think. Just not everlasting meaning.

                  Indeed, you must concede I’m on record on this thread as saying I value subjective experience. That doesn’t lend itself to your conclusion that I think things are “meaningless”.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  Looking up the definition of what you called me, I can tell you as a child of God, by God’s grace, I am the opposite of a nihilist.

                  I was referencing the wisest man (next to the Son of Man) who ever lived, Sam. That being Solomon.

                  Solomon had great wealth, all the women companionship he desired, all the power over others he could ever desire. Yet, if you read the book of Ecclesiastes, he found it was all vanity and concluded:

                  “The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.” Eccl. 12:13-14 NAS

                  And in regards to your philosophy- I did not state you found no meaning in the election. I said I wanted you to find the real meaning to living. This election will soon be past. What then? Should the outcome go the way you desire and that is something giving your life meaning- will it be enough to cause you to not kill yourself in the end? There is more to life than temporal things, things that give pleasure only for a season. And the pleasures that can only be known forevermore from the hand of God are awaiting all who love, know and fear Him as Lord. They start when the believer first believes. And in eternity, with sin out of the way, the pleasures increase beyond what any person can fathom!

                  Regarding riches, Solomon says:

                  He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity. When good things increase, those who consume them increase. So what is the advantage to their owners except to look on? The sleep of the working man is pleasant, whether he eats little or much; but the full stomach of the rich man does not allow him to sleep.

                  There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being hoarded by their owner to his hurt. When those riches were lost through a bad investment and he had fathered a son, then there was nothing to support him. As he had come naked from his mother’s womb, so will he return as he came. He will take nothing from the fruit of his labor that he can carry in his hand.

                  -Ecclesiastes 5:10-13 NAS

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  I didn’t call you a nihilist.

                  But you were putting a word in my mouth frequently used by nihilists, or at least as a perception of nihilism by others.

                  My point is, I’m not saying things are meaningless. I’m saying things are finite.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  You said: ‘I think that’s an oversimplification, but by no means your fault — it’s an oversimplification made by many nihilists.’

                  Perhaps you can understand from that why I thought you were calling me one? I’m glad you don’t think so.

                  I was not meaning to put a word in your mouth, simply reasoning to the end of your fatalistic, temporal way of thinking when I stated what I did, it’s really meaningless for you how an election comes out. Without God, without heaven and hell, and with your intending to commit suicide, warring against evil really wouldn’t matter.

                  You have immortality- your soul/spirit will live on and whether you care to admit it or not, that doesn’t alter the truth of the matter. There is an infinite God, the Creator you have rebelled against. I know you are lost and grieving and God calls to you and all men to come to Him. Lay your burden down at the foot of the cross, Sam. You will never find rest for your soul otherwise.

          • Rshill7

            Then what?

            • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

              No, I’ve known happiness and joy and frequently do, including recently.

              But also their inverse.

              However, my consciousness will cease one day anyway, so it really doesn’t matter. Well, not in the end.

              • Rshill7

                Wrong again. You have no factual basis for believing that is the least bit true.

                Listen, I have not thrown Bible verses at you a single time. My faith comes from reason, and I have many, many, reasons to believe based on science, facts, and collected evidence. It is those things which led me back to the Bible, not the other way round. I went through a multi-year searching period, just as many before me have done. You ought to do the same before settling on farce.

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  My estimation of the facts leads me to conclude it is a near-certainty. But I acknowledge that I don’t and can’t have perfect certainty on this score. It’s impossible — by definition.

                  However, even if my consciousness does continue after physical death, I have no reliable means of knowing what actions, if any, that I take now will make the slightest difference after my death and whether such difference would even be positive or negative to me.

                • Rshill7

                  Because minus the stupid bullshit manufactured by thou to adorn your doubt, it’s true.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  ‘However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.’
                  Romans 10:16-17 NAS

                • Rshill7

                  Right. I just think one need first get beyond the: 1. Huh? “Don’t quote God to me. That’s all a bunch of hooey”. Know what I mean?

                  If one thinks there is no God, how will God-quotes help them? First you need to be able to accept that God is or must be, before you will listen to what He might say.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  Romans 1 tells us everyone knows there is a God.

                  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12 NAS

                  The Spirit of God works in the hearts of all God has given to Christ:

                  “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

                  And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.” John 16:7-11 NAS

                  For all who have not been given ears to hear:

                  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. I Corinthians 2:14 NAS

                • famouswolf

                  I think that is very true. I always wanted some sort of universal justice, no matter what. I refused to think that certain things that happened in my life, even though they were my fault, would not be made right or life was totally meaningless chaos. I crave that eventual justice more than anything. I’ve found it without dying, although I did some serious damage to myself first.

                  The human mind wants to find justice and meaning. It’s really impossible to do so without some help. I don’t mean human help.

                  LOL No, you are the diametric opposite of a nihilist. That’s what Sam thinks he is.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  For the believer, justice is satisfied in Christ alone!

                  I think you mentioned on a different response you are from Johnson City area… if you like expositional preaching and teaching, may I recommend to you a fairly new church in that area? It’s called Immanuel Bible Church and it is on LP Auer Road.


                • famouswolf

                  I appreciate that, but it would be a loooong trip these days. I currently live in a suburb of Seattle.

                  I know where it’s at. In college I had a friend that lived right down the road.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  Ah, so you moved then, I take it?

                • famouswolf

                  Way back in 1986. I got laid off, and always wanted a place with cooler summers, so…

                  Turned out to be a good decision, not because of the cooler summers, but this was where I met my wife. So, it’s home now. Last time I was in East Tennessee was in 1995, and was shocked at the changes ten years had made. That four lane from JC up past Fall City was the biggest surprise. Downtown JC was completely dead. ETSU had not changed much, at least. Anyway.

                  You never said where in Tennessee you lived, but since you mention Jonesboro are you around the Tri Cities area?

                  Here, I have my eye on a Methodist church in downtown Redmond although I have not taken the leap yet. I’m not really in to church in general, so I don’t know.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  Actually, I mentioned Johnson City :0) in regards to a church I could recommend. I don’t want to be too specific in this public forum as to exactly what city in East Tennessee I live, but the tri-cities area is a little ways from me.

                  Are you a Christian? Though Christians aren’t supposed to forsake assembly of ourselves together, going to a church where God’s Word isn’t faithfully taught is pretty useless, so if you decide to go to church, I hope there is a church close by whose leadership are unashamedly following the Lord and striving to obey His Word!


                • famouswolf

                  Yes, recently.

                  Too much evil in my face I guess.

                  Should I go back and censor my location? It didn’t occur to me that it would matter, about my location.

                  Right now I’m working out my relationship, with the Bible and C. S. Lewis.

                • Galatiansch2vs20

                  A lot of traffic comes on here- depends on how safe you feel about divulging it.
                  Praise the Lord! While you are reading your Bible and C.S. Lewis and thinking about going to church, maybe you’d like to check out some messages from a couple of my favorite Pastor/teachers?



                • famouswolf

                  Thank you.

          • 1LonesomeDove1

            How sad for you. I choose life m’self. I helps me to value the lives of others.

            Just sayin…..

            • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd


              I too obviously choose life on a day-to-day basis, at this point. Instinct, and also certain pleasures, and certain people who I have voluntarily invited into my life in the past who would like me to remain and tarry with them — one in particular.

              The fact is, and very much unlike most people, I have the technology and knowledge to end my life peacefully, reliably, and comfortably within the day if I so chose.

              And I’m not choosing to do that.

              • 1LonesomeDove1

                Hmmm, that’s interesting. Puts me in mind of George Sanders.

              • Rshill7

                Then you’re pro-life 🙂

                It’s the afterlife that might not be “peacefully, reliably, and comfortably…” consider that.

            • deeme

              Good point L.D..

              • 1LonesomeDove1

                Well, with or without the painless device………I choose life.

                No man is an island unto himself.

                • deeme

                  Yeah I mean I’m pretty sure I don’t need the painless device to end my life ..I’m sure with my bad stomach, a bottle of aspirin would do the trick , what a sad way to look at life..I think this person needs our prayers…Thanks for choosing life L.D. I know you’ve had heartache…the World wouldn’t be the same without you..

                • 1LonesomeDove1

                  Thanks deeme! And right back atcha!!!

          • Nukeman60

            …assuming chance doesn’t intervene…‘ – s

            You assume chance is something random, without ever considering chance may just be God’s will for you.

    • Rshill7

      That’s called moving away from what is right and closer to what is wrong.

      Pro-choice means that a mother can choose to murder an unborn baby. What’s right about that? We were all at one point unborn babies were we not?

      • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

        No, it’s valuing thoughts and feelings — the only thing that matters at all as near as I can see — over the arbitrariness of whether something is alive.

        Do bacteria’s lives have great moral weight with us? Carrots? Viruses? Mold?

        They’re all alive, by most definitions, and 3 out of the 4 are for sure. But we don’t think twice about killing them. Other than the fact that evolution has shaped our psychology to be OK with killing other species where necessary for our survival (and often our own species too if it helps us either survive or even achieve a particular, often biologically-driven, agenda), we don’t care much because they don’t experience anything as far as we know.

        But we don’t allow the abuse of children or various other widely acknowledged crimes — among both the left and the right — because we agree they do experience the horrors and we empathize with them.

        Pro-choice people, as I have said, generally don’t believe in the inherent value of human life as such, and do believe in the value of human subjective experience. Therein lies the difference.

        Philosophically, it’s something philosopher Shelly Kagan called the “neutral” vs. “valuable” container theory referring to life.

        I believe life is neutral, and it’s the content which matters.

        And even then, only somewhat, because it all ends and our subjective experience ceases. At that point, whatever we did or didn’t do or experience matters not a wit to us because there is no us.

        Even if care about in life what happens after you die, and most people do (we evolved to do so for obvious reasons), it won’t matter to you in the slightest once you’re dead.

        • Nukeman60

          …because we agree they do experience the horrors and we empathize with them.‘ – s

          So you believe then that it’s okay to euthanize children in their sleep? They wouldn’t feel that horror.

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

            We evolved to feel that is wrong, insofar as as we are survival and replication machines. It goes against our genetic programming to accept it. It bothers me emotionally as well.

            The fact remains, however, the end state is exactly the same as if we did nothing, or anything else.

            • Nukeman60

              The fact remains, however, the end state is exactly the same as if we did nothing, or anything else‘ – s

              How do you know? How do you know that our genetic makeup (our DNA) wasn’t designed specifically by God for us to feel the difference between right and wrong? It’s something you would do well to pursue the answer to. You may find that ‘the end state’ that you presuppose is not really the end state at all.

              Certainly, there is no harm in looking.

        • Rshill7

          The theory of evolution is wrong sir. It’s the biggest hoax ever to foist itself on human beings. It has no basis whatsoever in fact. The facts line up with creation from an intelligent being. There’s your biggest problem right there.

          Even Francis Crick said, “Life could not and did not evolve on this Earth.”

          You know who he is, right? Plus there is no concrete theory of evolution that “scientists” agree on. Crick adhered to Directed Panspermia. What do you think of that one? Are you a Darwinian evolutionist or some other?

          • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd


            • Rshill7

              Well, laughing is good I suppose. What other creature does that? 🙂

              You ought consider rethinking your theories about life, death, creation, and where all of those things come from.

              You didn’t answer any of my questions though. I didn’t think you would. That might be because you cannot.

              • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                I’m not an expert on every plausible variation on evolutionary theory.

                However, the basics are well established, and little in terms of biology or even human behavior makes sense without it.

                Do I think life necessarily evolved just on Earth with no interplanetary components? Nah, I kind of doubt it actually. I suspect evolutionary processes are widespread.

                • Rshill7

                  “However, the basics are well established, and little in terms of biology or even human behavior makes sense without it.” (Sam)

                  Little of this post makes sense sir. What are the basics which are well established?

                • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

                  That we share genes in common with and are related to all known life, to start with. That adaption and change happens as a result of both natural and sexual selection — even artificial selection, to the extent we practice it.

                  Like we have at times with humans, and definitely do with dogs and carrots and horses.

                • Rshill7

                  Common design features from a common designer. DNA is the code. A very, very, very complicated code. A Creator could put that together and let it go.

    • bobemakk

      I am a Roman Catholic and I am pro choice as well, according to the situation. I will vote for Romney. God bless Alonzo, he is great.

  • Nukeman60

    No one can make the case that finds the child guilty‘ – Zo

    Yep, that says it all. Sho Nuff.

  • due process….. hmmm.
    BAH-BAM! nother great vid. thanks zo.

  • deeme

    You got it, they don’t really care about grandpa , grandma, babies wanting to be born, military under fire, or anyone who doesn’t meet their needs…I love how they say we don’t care about handicapped and Downs Syndrome babies when 98 percent of them are aborted by them..this guy should do a course in college called “keeping it real”…

  • colliemum

    That was simply outstanding.

    I wonder how the leftie child murder advocates would answer that one.

  • Army_Pilot1967

    I suppose abortion was extremely rare around the time I was born….thank goodness for that. Not that my mother would have chosen abortion, but I’m glad it wasn’t even thought about back then. My daughter is a single mother and her son is a blessing to her, to my wife and me….I shudder to think what we would have missed had she opted for an abortion. We would have missed out on having a wonderful, loving grandson in our lives!!!

    • deeme

      That’s the point he was making when he said God gave you that life inside you for a reason..I’ve never met anyone that regretted giving life, I have regretted those who have regretted “choosing ” not to..

    • Rshill7


  • Rshill7

    This is the best Zo yet IMO. If you think you know what he’s going to say and therefore don’t watch it, you’ll miss something truly great, like I almost did (especially if you consider yourself Christian). I finally, just now, watched it.

    Wow, that was so good. I’m going to watch it again. Man o’ man.

    • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

      I often do, and sometimes don’t, agree with what Zo has to say, but he says it like few can.

  • Those who enjoyed this man’s refreshing comments would also appreciate Ryan Bomberger, whose testimonies can be found on youtube. He is a biracial result of rape, and his mother placed him for adoption. He grew up in a family with 13 kids, 10 of which were adopted. He lives in Atlanta with his wife Brittany, and they are the ones responsible for those billboards http://www.toomanyaborted.com that are giving Planned Parenthood the conniptions in VA, CA, and GA. He gave me hope about life!

  • tvlgds

    Dead on, as usual!

  • Saw a graphic on Facebook about how a bacteria can be considered ‘life’ on Mars but a fetus with a heartbeat can’t be considered ‘life’ on Earth.

    Love that liberal thinking.

  • Zo said that Murdock doesn’t think that “pregnancy from rape equals a gift from God,” but he did say that pregnancy from rape is a gift from God. He said “Life is a gift from God, and I think even when it begins in that horrible situation of rape that it is what God intended to happen.”

  • Also, women didn’t do anything wrong if they get raped. Mourdoch would have the women forced to continue being pregnant and to give birth–even if they don’t want to. Some women don’t even have money and time to raise a child. If that’s the case, arguably they could put them up for adoption, but that’s their own choice. In that case, they would still have to go through with the pregnancy, and that would still be one more unwanted child that would have to find a home. Raped women are not guilty of anything.

    Zo argues that murder is wrong. That’s true, but it’s kind of like saying that Disney producing Star War 7 is a bad idea. Yes, it’s a bad idea, but it has nothing to do with the case at hand, which is whether people should be forced to give birth and possibly raise a child just because they are unconsensually raped. No one thinks it’s right to murder people. We’re just arguing for people’s rights–rights to have an abortion.

  • Colonel Neville

    Why should the baby be punished with the mutilation and death penalty of abortion for the fathers rape crime? Ah, the left are bankrupt and void of morality and rational thought. And not only the left think this this crap. No, really. Colonel Neville.

  • iHeartLife

    Jane Roe (as in Roe v Wade) is PRO-LIFE

    A couple married 25 years regret abortion from 30 years ago:

    – Says decision eventually comes back to haunt you. Missed out on normal family stuff (holidays, school plays, etc).

    Rape survivor regrets abortion: http://tiny.cc/RapeVsAbortion
    – Says decision to abort greater than rape experience. She got over the rape but the death of her baby weighed heaviest.

    What’s the point? The effects of abortion is far greater and far reaching than the “right” to have it, and of course it isn’t publicized because Planned Parenthood makes millions of dollars from it. Both the mother and father (whether married or not) feel the full impact of the abortion eventually. It is unnatural for people to kill their own and not grieve and regret later.

    Thank goodness there is healing and forgiveness for those who want it.

  • As always Zo is brutally honest, and intellectually and morally right on the issue of abortion. It may be the right of the mother (women) to abort, but it sure isn’t right to the unborn.

    • Samwise Gamgee the 3rd

      He’s cherry-picking the Bible in a huge way in this piece.

  • Idahoser

    no, the child is not guilty, but neither is the rape victim. In this case her established and violated life takes precedence over a baby she did not conceive voluntarily.
    Abortion is always homicide, but some homicide is justifiable. That choice is hers to make.