ZoNation: Time to lower the Confederate flag

Another great one from ZoNation:

A college student put a confederate flag in his dorm room, arguing that he was just showing Southern pride. Zo thinks this student should pledge allegiance to Old Glory, the only flag that should matter in America.



Consider this an open thread.

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148 thoughts on “ZoNation: Time to lower the Confederate flag

  1. OK, if no other flag matters, remove all state flags, and the Gadsden flags, and every symbol of any kind except the American flag. Does this mean that Zo wants all religious symbols removed and forbidden too? What about all those USMC decals on cars?

    Nobody’s perfect. That includes Zo. He’s wrong on this one. Freedom, Zo. Not mind control. Not flagzombies in place of obamazombies.

    And BTW, I would consider secession a welcome alternative to remaining in the union, considering how horrible obama and his team have managed to make it. We need more divisiveness to carve up the diversity we’re all suffering under.

    My maternal grandmother was a Daughter of the Confederacy. Both she and her daughter and her three grandsons were and are proud Southerners and proud Americans. None of us approve of slavery. But there’s a lot more to the South, then and now, than the (now dead) issue of slavery.

    Time to stop beating this dead horse, Zo. All you’re accomplishing is making people like me consider buying and flying one of those Confederate flags, just because we don’t like being yammered at by some self-righteous so-and-so.

    1. Shall we also have displays of the Nazi flag? How many innocent Africans died during the slave transport?

      1. Name a flag that does not have some injustice behind it. Consider this: the American flag before the Civil War stood for slavery, too. The slavery issue was an early case of “kicking the can down the road”. It should have been dealt with immediately, but for several reasons it was not until the issue was forced on them that the government decided to act. Shall we also, to be ideologically pure, castigate the Founders because they failed to deal with slavery immediately? And the North, after the Civil War, tolerated the Jim Crow laws and segregation and extreme racism until Martin Luther King, Jr., came to the front of the groundswell of anger and directed it in a positive way to take another giant step toward justice. Shall we dig up those establishment “leaders” and defile their bodies because they put off dealing with Jim Crow until forced to deal with it?

        Evil began in the Garden of Eden. We can’t go back and untangle all these knots and either administer justice or reparations. As King David said, “If You, Lord, kept a record of iniquities, who could stand?”

        I guarantee that you (and I) have committed injustices and done things offensive to God. Shall we walk around all our lives heads hanging and ashamed? Or do we confess our sins to God, make what restitution we can, be proud of what we have done right, and just go on with our lives. What I remember about the Old South is not only the Jim Crow era, but also the sense of personal honor, personal morality, personal responsibility, and caring for neighbors and family my southern ancestors and living relatives taught me.

        While my northern relatives were, for the most part, giving me a great example of how NOT to live.

        That’s a big reason why, in my heart, I’ll always be a Southerner.

          1. Wrong. It also doesn’t mean that I want to be reincarnated as a boulder, or believe there’s life on Mars, or that Congress should repeal the law of gravity.

            Happy New Year.

  2. I’m a Southerner and I’ll keep flying my Stars & Bars “States Flag” and I don’t give a flying rats ass what anyone thinks. I have thousands of blacks living around me and we get along wonderfully, and it’s there for all to see and will remain so. The Yankee’s owned slaves too, under the Stars & Stripes “United States” flag, gonna ban it too, as much as 5% of the free Southern Blacks as well as their Northern brothers owned slaves too, and that’s a damn fact! There are lies being spread about this flag and if you can’t take the time to research it more thoroughly then to hell with your your thoughts. I can dump information all day about the inconsistencies of our written history to the plain simple truth of the matter…Your beloved Lincoln was the biggest racist of them all and even made deals with four border states to the South, that allowed them to keep their slaves until after the war, this was the so called emancipation, and his war against the Southern States was damn well illegal, and used slavery some three years later for his so called cause, I had kin who fought for the South and the Revolution and are as American as anyone else but the truth seems to be rather hard to swollow for the weak minded! Lincoln perhaps received his karma no doubt! The Kid flying this flag has a right to do so, where is it written that your rights are more sacred to ours, that can be trumped out because someones tiny feelings are hurt, bunch of whiny powder butt babies!

  3. Why do Southern losers want to brandish the flag of a…..loser!

    The confederacy was bunk, Jefferson davis was a loser. Y’all lost.

    Come and join the rest of us in the Union. Celebrate old glory.

    Or I’m sure we could send Sherman back down there and teach you people a lesson……..again!

    hahahahah.

    God Bless America! The united states, that is.

    1. Civil War historian Shelby Foote (a southerner) said that he does not think that the south could have won the war. He said that the North was fighting with one hand behind it’s back, and it would only use both hands when absolutely necessary.

      The intresting about Foote is that he could be called a southern sympathizer, but he was honest about the role of slavery as the cause of the war.

      When Foote Died, Fox News had this detail to say:

      Though a native Southerner, Foote did not favor South in his history or novels and was not counted among those Southern historians who regard the Civil War as the great Lost Cause.

      Link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160928,00.html

      Good to know that a man can be honest about the past of the place of his origins.

      1. That’s interesting. But what does Gore Vidal say? Probably something along the lines of…..The South took it up the wazoo.

        hahaha.

        In all seriousness though, of course they would have lost—eventually. Although, man the union did get shredded. The south is tough. I bet if we do a rematch today, the outcome would be different. What is it–like 60% of the entire military is made up of southerners. All the major ship building ports are in the south. Annapolis, DC–centers of power can be considered southern power. The nukes are in the north though. At least we got that going for us.

        LONG LIVE THE UNION! DOWN WITH THEM CONFEDERATE DOGS!

    2. When you consider the state of the Union today, are you real sure you want to remain a part of it yourself? I’m not strongly moved by an appeal to “join the rest” of you ni the Union, myself. Unfortunately, it’s not optional. We may be able to improve it after November 2012, though.

  4. If our republic keeps tracking down the tryannical path we are on, and becomes a full blown fascistic state for a couple generations,… and the new regime uses old glory for their symbol…,and the next generation grows up resenting old glory because it was once used to represent tyranny, we should no longer fly old glory because it had been used out of context according to the older generation by the fascist….?

  5. And just how do you know this student does not pledge his allegiance to old glory. Oh, and BTW, the Confederate flag still has special and significant meaning to a lot of folks. There are many, many flags that have special significance in the good ‘ole USA.

  6. I have learned so much by reading this thread! Thank you Scoop for posting the pertinent topics & thank you readers for having intelligent debate. I think my brain is growing again & at my age, that’s pretty cool!

  7. actually, the Confederate Flag may have nothing to do with slavery, it has to do with “states’ rights”….The Civil War originated in “state’s rights” not slavery.

    But, even if you totally disagree with the above statement, hopefully you believe in “freedom of speech”.

    No problem displaying the Confederate Flag, but it’s not the best choice.

      1. Unfortunately, this era of history is not taught much; Lincoln massively grew the power, scope and influence of the (at that time) weak federal govt. Lincoln also violated the concept of “all are equal before the law”, and reinforced class warfare thru the draft bill. I liked how he handled journalists and ‘treason’, we could do for some of that today.

        I’d start with reading about the “whiskey rebellion” early in Am. History, up thru the Dredd Scott decision and how the Supreme Court balanced State, Federal and Individual rights. Our Founders really wanted a weak central govt, to avoid what we have now. there is truth on both sides, looking back.

        plz google “civil war + state’s rights”

        Wiki actually does a credible job of doing an overview of the issues involved.

        Other links: (there are more I’m sure)

        http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/letters/2010-04-14-letters14_ST1_N.htm

        http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm

        http://civilwar.bluegrass.net/

        1. The reason why I asked you is because there were no rights in dispute,….other than the “right” to own slaves.

          And when you dig deeper, the south was actually against “States’ Rights” when other states did things that they personally disagreed with. — South Carolina lambasted New York for abolishing “temporary slavery.” Also, the south refused to line up behind Douglass in the 1860 election because he was supported the “states’ right” to chose NOT to allow slavery… That was a state issue back then, and yet the south was not for allowing states to make decisions that were the opposite of what they wanted.

          IT can be argued that the South was not for states rights at all….unless the other states made decisions they agreed with.

          1. note to Is_Sense_Common — plz follow my suggestions, Kris Smith is entitled to his opinion, however simple or wrong it may be…

            I’d also add suggested reading about Henry Clay and John C. Calhoun and how the issues between the War of 1812 and the Missouri Compromise shaped a lot of the roots of disagreement which led to the Civil War. Slavery represented “property” to the South…and black men actually owned “slaves” (also black) in Northern States up to the Civil War.

            Slavery/Abolitionist Movement + Christians & creation of the GOP and disappearance of the Whig Party

            This stuff is pretty deep and detailed and facinating, I encourage everyone to explore our wonderful history…and hopefully avoid making the same mistakes twice.

              1. the size and scope of the federal government was directly addressed by the Confederate States Constitution……notice the commentary between ++++. It wasn’t all about slaves folks, there were legitimate claims by those in the Confederacy about restraint of trade or imposition of federal power over trade within the Northern States and how the federal govt was meddling or seeking to impose it’s will on Southern States. For specific info see this link, scroll down and see how the Confederate Constitution reimposed States rights over the U.S. Constitution. IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT SLAVERY

                Game, set, match, Dow Daytrader.

                http://www.filibustercartoons.com/CSA.htm

                the balance of this post is lifted from Wiki’s thin overview
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Constitution

                The first twelve amendments to the U.S. Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, were directly incorporated into the Confederate Constitution. This was originally suggested by James Madison for the Bill of Rights in the time after the Constitution Convention, but he was defeated. By adding the text at the end of Article I, Section 9, the Framers of the Confederate Constitution made clear that only the conduct of the federal (confederate) government was restrained, and that the provisions did not limit the powers of the states.
                The Powers of Congress, Article I section viii
                The Congress shall have power –
                1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises for revenue, necessary to pay the debts, provide for the common defense, and carry on the Government of the Confederate States; but no bounties shall be granted from the Treasury; nor shall any duties or taxes on importations from foreign nations be laid to promote or foster any branch of industry; and all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the Confederate States.
                The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

                +++++++++++
                Notice the break in the confederate constitution’s first power of congress which leaves no doubt that Congress only has power to levy taxes for the following powers and not just for anything at all that is in the common defense or general welfare. The phrase “to promote or foster any branch of industry” was added to the “tax uniformity clause” in Article I, Section 8(1) to stress the opposition of the Confederacy to non-uniform tariffs such as the Tariff of 1828, also known as the Tariff of Abominations.[3]
                The third power of the confederate congress prohibits all federal expenditure on internal improvements except those of waterways and oceans, and even these costs will not be externalized on the public coffer but billed to the industries that benefit from the improvements.
                ++++++++++++++++

                3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes; but neither this, nor any other clause contained in the Constitution, shall ever be construed to delegate the power to Congress to appropriate money for any internal improvement intended to facilitate commerce; except for the purpose of furnishing lights, beacons, and buoys, and other aids to navigation upon the coasts, and the improvement of harbors and the removing of obstructions in river navigation; in all which cases such duties shall be laid on the navigation facilitated thereby as may be necessary to pay the costs and expenses thereof.
                Despite some opposition, the international slave trade was banned in the Confederacy, as it had been in the U.S. since 1808. Delegates feared that European governments would not recognize a CSA that did not prohibit the international trade. The international slave trade was distasteful to many slaveowners. Prohibition of foreign slave trade also protected the substantial domestic slave trade in Virginia and Maryland, who had yet to join the CSA.

                1. the size and scope of the federal government was directly addressed by the Confederate States Constitution……notice the commentary between

                  I guess you didn’t read what I said. I said the states that seceded worried about the size of the Govt. ONLY when it became clear they were losing their political edge in Washington. — The CSA constitution hardly pre-dates THAT event.

                  IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT SLAVERY

                  Technically true, but also misleading. Slavery was not the ONLY reason that some of the states seceded, but it was the primary reason that the first seven did. Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee seceded ONLY after Lincoln called for volunteers. They would have remained in the Union otherwise.

                  Abraham’s “official” reason for the war at first may not have been to free the slaves; it was to preserve the Union…but again, the lower south made it clear to say that a major justification WAS slavery…. I.e., Lincoln went to war because the south seceded…and MOST of the south seceded BECAUSE of slavery, so it can be argued, no matter how you spin it, that the first domino to fall was over slavery.

                  It was not ALL about slavery, but it was MOSTLY related to that issue.

                  Your first link actually hurts your case. It says this near the end: “As far as slave-owning rights go, however, the document is much more effective. Indeed, CSA constitution seems to barely stop short of making owning slaves mandatory. “ — “Short if making slavery mandatory?” — It sure makes slavery look really important to the south, doesn’t it?

                2. I read it; seems you didn’t read this link that I posted above which I repost below.

                  http://www.filibustercartoons….

                  It’s very clear what the issues were regarding “federalism” and how the Feds had intruded on commerce that was MY WHOLE POINT. the webside points this out quite clearly.

                  Succession had a lot to do with federalism and commerce – that was a major point of succession. Any country needs “hard currency” and the Confederacy was very careful to maintain and strengthen foreign trade after succession…it didn’t work out but the Confederacy docs certainly try to strengthen their position vs dealing with the US Federal govt.

                  Something you have missed I think in your comments is that there was a hypocrisy in the North about slavery before 1860 which the Whigs protected but the Republicans confronted. Lincoln’s election brought that to the fore. I’m in no way defending Lincoln’s opposition.

                3. I am not saying there was no hypocracy in the north, but that is a completely different issue. I wouldn’t say that the north was right about everything, after all, racism was entrenched in the north….but again, that’s a different issue..

                  My issue is whether or not slavery was the main cause of the war, and your own sources even pointed that out, and therefore contradict one of your major claims which you even put all in caps.

                  Succession had a lot to do with federalism and commerce – that was a major point of succession. Any country needs “hard currency” and the Confederacy was very careful to maintain and strengthen foreign trade after succession…it didn’t work out but the Confederacy docs certainly try to strengthen their position vs dealing with the US Federal govt.

                  I wonder. Have you read the Ordinances of Secession? Those were the documents published by the states that seceded. I have, and even if you were right, commerce was hardly even mentioned in the justifications for them to secede. You would think that if it had a lot to do with it then they would have mentioned it plenty of times. Pretty odd that they don’t.

                  In Texas’ ordinances of secession, for example, slavery gets mentioned several times, whereas commerce gets no mention:

                  Here are some ordinances together, including Texas’:

                  http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

                4. can’t say I was there, BUT, the first and foremost issue before any State would withdraw from the Union would be to provide markets/currency/trade for their exports; defending slavery was a pure economic play by the South and unless the plantations could secure markets for their exports it just wouldn’t happen.

                  So, “state’s rights” as documented by the Confederate Constitution (trade & ‘federalism’) had to be a large concern, as I clearly pointed out above.

                  Everyone in leadership knew the North had the advantage in men, material and manufacturing; international trade to compete against the North’s strengths would be a paramount but maybe not overriding concern.

                  Reading what is “written”, keep in mind the South (and the North) had to motivate the masses…lots of politics, that’s why I mentioned studying ‘federalism’ from the 1812 period forward, because a lot of those ‘Hamilton’ issues were coming down the pike by the time Lincoln rolled into office.

                  I’m done with this thread.

                5. I recognize you say you’re done. But one more word from me about the topic of states’ rights.

                  I already have explained on different comments that the southern states were only for states’ rights when the other states agreed with them. I have mentioned a while ago that South Carolina lambasted New York for making a certain decision it disagreed with. NY abolished temporary slavery, and SC was enraged at that, as an example I have mentioned many times. I also mentioned that the reason the south did not support Douglass in the 1860 election was that, even though he was not anti-slavery, he was for giving states the right to “chose NOT to have slaves.” They wanted someone more pro-slavery than that….Sure sounds like they were pretty selective on their “states rights” position.

          1. Well, many people think it was. You’re entitled to you opinion; only 8% of Southern landowners were slave owners in the 1860’s. Many people, myself included, understand that the Civil War was more about Fedaral intervention.

            1. What you don’t understand is that even though a minority of southerners owned slaves, most of them (yes, even the poor) wanted to own slaves as well. It was supposedly a sign of “prosperity.” General Sherman once asked a slave why people who had no slaves fought for the south, and the slave told him it was because they wanted slaves too.

              Non-slave holders also fought for slavery because they thought the institution was the “will of God.”

              The fact that non-slave holders fought for the south is in no way an indication that it was not over slavery.

              For a read on this: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/civil-war-overview/why-non-slaveholding.html

  8. I really like Zo but I disagree with him on this issue. Many Southerners think of this flag as part of their rich heritage largely unrelated to slavery. Northerners equate the flag to slavery.

    Many Northerners forget or don’t know that the majority of slaves were brought to the South from Northern businessman, initially. And the biggest slave profiteers were black Africans that sometimes sold members of their own families.
    Nice, huh? (sarcasm)

    Many historians argue about the real reason for the Civil war. Was it because of slavery? Was it because the South was becoming wealthier than the North due to Eli Whitney’s Cotton Gin and other inventions? And the North could not compete with the South, economically? Was it due to greed and corruption?

    Summation: If a Southerner wants to raise the Confederate flag, it is their right to hang the flag. And too, maybe the South will rise again as many of the Southern States are big on “States rights” and oppose obamacare and other unconstitutional legislation.

    PS
    Just in case, anyone takes my post the wrong way, I am not defending slavery, I’m a huge “freedom for all” ( legal citizens) advocate.

  9. The Civil War was not about slavery. That was only one of the issues. It was about the South getting taxed more unfairly than the North. The Confederate Flag is not about slavery. It’s part of the history of the South, that’s all.

    I get tired of every issue in this country being turned into slavery. The black race is as equal as the white race. Good grief, enough already. I don’t like a lot of things I have to put up with, but I don’t go around whining about it for years on end.

    1. I already debunked this in a former post: In the Ordinances of Secession—the lists of justifications for secession— taxation is hardly even mentioned as a justification to secede, if it is at all. If I am wrong, cite a founding confederate document that says otherwise.

        1. I already did. I cited the Ordinances of Succession (which is the justification for secession.). I quoted the example from Mississippi. —Want me to quote it again? Fine. This is from one of the founding documents:

          Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

          That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

          The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

          The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

          The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

          It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

          It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

          It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

          It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

          It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

          Link: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

          Also, before this, I also quoted the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens from his famous Cornerstone Speech–which was given right after the first states seceded, and BEFORE the war even broke out:

          “Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. “

          The speech can be accessed here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.asp

          — I have read the original literature, the founding documents of the CSA…..and there is hardly any complaint about taxation. — And honestly, it would have not been realistic to secede over taxation since the Confederate Government would have levied taxes as well.

          Well, I have re-quoted my sources….both of them are primary documents…..now give me YOUR primary sources that it was for taxation. I wait with baited breath.

  10. Alot of people still like the Confederate flag. Nothing to do with slavery. I agree here with most. I pledge to Old Glory but I find nothing offensive with the Confederate flag. God bless the U.S.A…..we need it!

  11. For me, that butt-wipe that they used for a flag has always represented a terrorist war against the legitimate government of the United States and the Constitution. These people were terrorists that were no better than Eta or Basque (though those groups haven’t taken to the streets and murdered hundreds of thousands of Spaniards). They took up arms against the government and people of the United States, all in the name of the spurious states right to enslave, murder, rape and abduct. Everything that the left claims the United States stands for is actually represented by that flag. If the OWS people want to protest something, burn and desecrate something in the streets, it should be THIS flag, considering it represents, quite literally, everything they claim they oppose. Where a government oppresses people, based on their ethnicity; where people are protected in their right to oppress in the name of profit, by laws. If this idiot was so hot about “Southern pride”, then he could’ve used his STATE flag, just as I’m free to fly Michigan’s flag, if I’m ignorant enough to tout “Northern pride”, as opposed to AMERICAN pride. I didn’t join the Army and listen to the sound of gunshots, just to represent Michigan, and didn’t consider the Army National Guard for that reason, either. It was because I’m an AMERICAN. The only thing that comes before “American” is Christian, quite frankly, and even that says: ‘rend unto Caesar…’

    I’m a Conservative, if you didn’t know that. The paulnuts out there (that can kiss my ass) call me a neocon, and I call them mongoloids. In any event, the view we have of this of this idiotic student is the view leftists, especially black ones, have of me, as a hard-fighting, tough-talking, fact-quoting Conservative and Constitutional originalist. They see me as a stockholmed mind slave. This crap feeds into the crap that idiots like Jeanine Garofolo says about blacks that dare to think differently from the way they’re “supposed” to, due to the color of their skin. Idiocy like this kid’s is especially infuriating for me, because it just gives leftists another reason to try broad brushing me with the stupid stick, and call me “brainwashed” or a “house ni**er”.

    1. What’s your definition of a “mongoloid”? I thought that it meant either a Chinese / Sioux / etc. person or someone who has Down’s Syndrome.

    2. I’m glad to see you mention Jeanine Garofolo with the “stockholm syndrome” comment. I can’t understand why people can’t see the left for what it is. They are the race baiters that intentionally try to create racial tension so they can keep the blacks on the (what did Cain say?) the Democrat plantation (?). The racial comments come from the left, and you are definitely a a brainwashed, stockholm syndrome, house ni**er (according to them). Yet, when Cain said the left brainwashes blacks the left accuses him of being racist because he is saying that blacks can’t think for themselves. Yet, any time a black person goes to the Republican party all you hear is the left accusing them of being a traitor with Jeanine Garofolo type comments…which are telling blacks they shouldn’t think for themselves. I wish this whole race garbage would disappear because we are all Americans, not African American, German American, Mexican American, Indian American, and etc. Oh, wait, I forgot….that makes us racist because we don’t carve out special programs for blacks. It’s frustrating, because I would think doing so is racist. We can’t win for nothing.

    3. Terrific post.

      The Confederate flag (as represented commonly by the Rebel flag) is not one of pride but of oppression.

      When I moved from Detroit to Texas as a teen I was shocked to see the Confederate flag shirt worn by other kids.

      While I respected the right of those kids to wear that flag…I also respected the “right” of the other kids who would naturally hunt those kids down and beat the snot out of them…lol…

  12. Yes, it is very hard for some peole to forgive and forget. I guess I shall have to get a Danish flag, and parade it, every day, until some minority finds it offensive. It seems my family left Denmark in about 1760, or so. My Scottish mother would have to burn the British flag, and I would have to contribute to the IRA. Nah. I still like the melting pot. Poo on you un Americans. I pity the friends you shall never have. you will never have the fun I had, with my german friends, who lived WW2, telling me the truth about WW2. Thank them where ever they are.

  13. If anyone needs any gif with differing flags, including the Gadsden flag, I have the photoshop program link to make it work. If you want it just reply and I will post it. Works pretty cool, any standard pic you can make it a flapping gif.

    By the way, the civil war was NOT a one dimensional conflict. Do you really think that millions of people would go to war over one thing?

  14. It’s time for people to drop the instant offense to symbols. Racism won’t die until people let it go. Complaining about symbols and reserved words is the opposite of “letting it go.”

    1. That is unlikely.

      In school, they never asked us to take down our Texas flags when I went to school in Florida.

    1. It could understandably rub someone the wrong way, considering that the Confederate States of America was (“were,” if they were all sovereign) founded on slavery, and also on white supremacy.

      The Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander H. Stephens makes the point of white supremacy really clear in his famous Cornerstone Speech:

      “Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. “

      The speech can be accessed here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.asp

      So if the fact that the guy is black rubs Zo the wrong way, it is certainly understandable, considering the history behind that flag.

      1. Seems lots of people read the same thing and receive different ideas. Please read Mark Twain as a adult. His father was a plantation owner. The USSR held up MT as a example of a great communist. If you get hooked on him, read
        ” letters from earth”. Adults only, please. He wrote of the real south and the real civil war. He was banned in the USA for many years.

        1. I fail to see how you can read the phrase “the negro is not equal to the white man” and not think that the person who said it was saying that the CSA was based on white supremacy.

    2. Wow, aren’t you smart.

      That was pretty much Zo’s whole point. Which you seemed to have gotten and missed at the same time.

  15. That video is a superb execution of an excellent observation. Zo makes a point that many Americans overlook. We are a gracious and benevolent society that needs to be more aware of and stand behind the powerful symbol of the strength and generosity of this nation. Complacency is not healthy; otherwise, it seems our detractors may have more of a spine than we do.

    Btw, I plege allegiance…to the “republic” [not to the “democracy”] for which it stands. That’s why I’m a Republican.

  16. First of all, that’s the rebel flag — not the confederate flag. A simple Google search will show you the difference. Second of all, that flag is a part of American history. It’s no different from the Don’t Tread On Me flag. People should be allowed to do whatever they want with it. You know what you should be mad about? Foreign flags being flown over Old Glory. That’s a problem worth complaining about.

    But anyway, I still love ya.

  17. The way I see it blacks fought and died under the confederate flag too, so it’s a part of black history as well as American history. For better or for worse.

    1. There is a major reason why this is not true. — The Confederate Army did not allow Blacks in the army until March 1865 when General Lee became desperate for men. –At this time, Howell Cob made the statement, “If slaves seem good soldiers, then our whole theory of slavery is wrong.”

      The regiment of black confederates never saw battle since the war ended before they could fight.

        1. I posted a response, and for some reason it disappeared, but I’ll try again:

          I’ve seen that link before, but there are some details that need to be discussed. The fact is every reputable historian I have read up on places the date of the first black confederates at being from 1865, right when the war was about to end…no naturally I am skeptical of the link.

          There are also cases of pictures of African-Americans who were soldiers for the Union being touched up to make them “look” like they were fighting for the south and there are also cases of simply taking photos of such African-Americans fighting for the north and simply calling them confederates. — There is a really famous case of that happening with a Pennsylvania regiment. A photo of them was touched and the subtitle was added to say “1st Louisiana Native Guard 1861.”

          In his book A Patriot’s History of the United States (page 346) says that when they DID volunteer for the south, there were VERY few that did, while the vast majority simply waited and celebrated their freedom when the Union army came.

          In short, I would be skeptical of the claims that many blacks willfully fought for the south.

          1. You see, you refuse to even admit paintings, as proof you are wrong. The fact is, all public school Texas history books lie about the Civil War. The USA has been ‘editing’ those books since 1865. I had to go to the college library, to find the truth, and I was very angry. They still do it. In short, you do not allow for facts to alter your beliefs. Okay. Just do not try to force your beliefs on learned people. Admit you are biased and get on with it.

      1. Reread even the most basic USA history book. For Example, Fort Brownsville, in Texas was entirely black. They immediately surrendered in 1860, when Texas went to war. They then enlisted in the war, as CSA, in the same rank. Then, after the war, rejoined the USA. These people were not dumb. You might also read original south newspapers in the south, that were not burnt. They list the black CSA soldiers, weekly enlistment figures. If that is beyond you, at least look at some of the paintings of the period, and see black CSA, fighting in uniform. Of course, it is easy to misquote REL, since he was 1st in West Point to a 39th Grant. The north hated him, as a traitor.

        1. The only black soldiers I know from that area are the so called “Buffalo Soldiers.” If they are who you mean then try again. The Buffalo Soldiers were originally from Leavenworth Kansas, were formed in 1866, and were part of the UNITED STATES army.

        2. Don’t be tricked into thinking Lee was that great of a person. Just read his personal letters. He was a VERY flawed man.

  18. Some questions / thoughts about the Civil War and the Confederate flag(s) from your Northern neighbour:

    – The Confederate “X” flag is a separatist flag, so I can understand why people would want to remove it from the flag of Mississippi, etc.

    – I have heard that General Lee was against slavery and that the British Empire might not have traded with the Confederate States of America if they were not willing to abolish slavery. And if neither the United States of America nor the British Empire were willing to trade with the CSA, then how long would their economy and nation have survived? (That doesn’t mean that racism would have just disappeared, of course.)

    – Most people would probably think that the British North American colonies (i.e. Canada) were pro-North during the war due to our involvement in the Underground Railroad and the fact that some of our soldiers fought along with the North. However, you would be surprised how openly supportive of the South some people and places were, especially Halifax. Read the book “Canadians in the Civil War” by Claire Hoy — you will be surprised at the things that went on. It’s yet another example of interesting and important things that are never taught in school.

    1. General Lee considered slavery an evil, but he also thought it was a necessary evil. He made the statement that slaves were better here than they would have been in Africa.

      1. Thank you for that clarification.

        Here is a small sample from the book that I mentioned in the previous post, from pages 133-134:

        “Crimpers recruited soliders and sailors in various ways. There were ‘crimping houses’, where young men were beguiled into signing enlistment papers while drunk or in the arms of a prostitute or both. Many prostitutes had their own crimping business going, where they’d entice a man to sign up, drug him with chloroform, a drugged tea concoction, or Mickey Finns – whisky laced with a dollop of opium. With the help of an assistant, the victims were transported in crimping boats across the Niagara, St. Lawrence, or Detroit Rivers, or one of the Great Lakes, to recruiting stations just inside the U.S. border. Potential recruits were often just promised the bounty for signing up and told by the crimps they would help them escape with their money, only to find themselves without either their money or their promised helper, but wearing a Union uniform. Despite several statements from leading American officials decrying the practice and promising to crack down on it, recruitment stations didn’t care exactly how their recruits had come to be members of the Union Army, as long as they had a warm body to fill their quota and send off to the battles. More often than not, local, recruiting officers were only too happy to accept a bribe and look the other way.

        The practice was, of course, illegal. But the reward for catching a crimp was only $50 – raised to $200 in 1864 – and convicted crimps usually got six months of hard labour, though one particularly notorious crimp received five years. But not many crimps were caught, and those who were often bribed local officials into letting them escape….”

        Who says history is boring? LOL

          1. The oldest profession is very interesting. Much like the civil war history, it has been bent so much, few people understand it. In the old testiment, a prophet paid one a goat? Amazing?

        1. You might add, a rich man could buy his way out of the draft, by paying $300 to the subsitute. So, you understand why a plant owner, never fought, in the war he created. They were also vindictive, burning down the south. The south was all no draft. Many slaves were freed if they joined the CSA army. Also no bonding law. If you wanted to leave, you could do like mark twain, and just walk away. What a quacky war!

      2. Here’s another passage from page 265 of that book:

        “Decribing the event, the Boston Advertiser wrote: ‘Confederate sympathizers who form five-sixths the population of Halifax town, were all agog, and gave the pirates a most enthusiastic reception. Leading merchants met these daring plunderers, and clapped them on the shoulders at the landing place, and cheered them lustily for their bravery.’ On the second night of their stay in Halifax, the Halifax-Dartmouth ferry Micmac, filled with Southern sympathizers, steamed around the harbour and near the brightly lit Tallahassee, with the Halifax Volunteer Band playing such Southern classics as ‘Dixie’, ‘Listen to the Mocking Bird’, and ‘The Bonnie Blue Flag.'”

      3. Last post re: the book for now: Here is some text from the back cover:

        “During the American Civil War, Toronto, Montreal, St. Catharines and Halifax welcomed a well-financed network of Confederate spies and adventurers, bringing the war close to home with organized raids on Lake Erie and the border town of St. Albans, Vermont, where Confederate raiders were successfully defended by prominent Quebec politician J. C. Abbott, a future prime minister. Montreal’s St. Lawrence Hall Hotel had so many Confederates living there it offered mint juleps on its menu. It also afforded visits by John Wilkes Booth, who made several trips there and to Toronto as part of an organized plot leading up to the Good Friday 1865, assassination of President Abraham Lincoln.”

        Also, from page vi:

        “While it is not clear how many Canadians fought – estimates range from about 30,000 to 50,000, the latter likely being too high a number – an estimated 5,000 died in the struggle….”

      4. You sound like a Leftist defending abortion.

        “Abortion isn’t so bad because those babies would not have had a good life…”

    2. I guess the slaves in UK didn’t know that. And, the cotton exports to the UK almost increased 5 times, during the civil war. It was so bad, the USA ran a blackade to stop all UK boats to the CSA. And, the French openly supported the CSA, if that is any consolation. Oh, the CSA was doing very well, during the civil war, freedom at last from the crushing cotton taxes. Maybe now, you all, will understand the civil war better. 2 people raised alike, fighting over a false symbol. If you have learned, if nothing else, you should know the war was farmer against industrialists. Neither side was angelic. The south valued honor, and lost, because of it. And, the beat goes on.

      1. The South lost because their cause was evil and ultimately the North had a far superior industrial base that could support a war.

        It was always a war of attrition. Not one where the South could ever win.

    3. Actually what you refer to as the “Confederate X flag” (commonly referred to as the “Stars and Bars”) was what is referred to as a “battle flag”. Battle flags were square instead of rectangular, this made them less cumbersome when carried into battle. The flag used by the CSA during the war as the flag of state consisted of a blue union with a ring of thirteen white stars and three broad horizontal stripes ( red,white,red ), the “stars and bars” was initially employed as a naval ensign on the ships of the confederate navy, it did later come to replace the blue union and circle of stars on the “national flag”, towards the end of the war. The rectangular “stars and bars” used by organizations such as the KKK and Aryan nations morons never existed and is a modern invention. The very first confederate flag, the “bonnie blue flag” that flew over the batteries shelling Ft. Sumter was a simple rectangle of blue with a single large white star centered upon it.

  19. I normally agree with Zo, but I think he’s a bit off on this one. For goodness sake, he was using the confederate flag as a curtain in his dorm room, not pledging to it or demanding it to be flown in public places. I can understand people from the south not wanting to forget their history. It certainly doesn’t offend me (the KKK does). I thought Zo was a supporter of freedom.

      1. Well then, I guess I didn’t understand his rant on this one. How does Zo know whether or not that the young man grew pledging allegiance to our US flag, but just wanted to have some of his southern history in his room?

        With everything else going on in our country and around the world, it just seems to me to be insignificant if a southern college student uses the “rebel” flag as a curtain in his dorm room.

  20. Two points…

    First of all, that’s the rebel flag — not the confederate flag. A simple google search will show you the difference. Second of all, that flag is apart of American history. There’s

  21. Confederate Constitution:

    SECTION II.

    The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States, and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in such slaves shall not be impaired.

    A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

    No slave or Person held to Service or Labour in [one State] any State or Territory of the Confederate Slates under the Laws thereof, escaping or unlawfully carried into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such slave belongs, or to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

    SECTION III.

    [New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union;] Other States may be admitted into this Confederacy by a vote of two-thirds of the whole House of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate, the Senate voting by States; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations [respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State] concerning the property of the Confederate States, including the lands thereof.

    The Confederate States may acquire new territory, and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States lying without the limits of the several States, and may permit them, at such times and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the territorial government, and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and territories shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

  22. the confederate constitution stated that all member states would have to have slaves…so all states that joined the confederate states were to be slave holding states…enough said….

    1. More accurately, it said that there would be no laws restricting the right to have slaves, but it is still a guarantee to have slaves.

      It’s is hilarious to hear people say that the war was fought over states’ rights when there were those in the south that tore apart states that made “the opposite decision.” South Carolina ripped into New York for abolishing “Temporary Slavery,” even though that was a “state issue” at the time.

      There is a reason why Lincoln defeated Douglass.. Douglass was not anti-slavery, but he was for the “right” for a state to chose NOT to have slaves… That is why the south did not support him. He was not “radical” enough for them. — So much for the “states rights” argument.

      1. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the territorial government, and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and territories shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

      2. You from ‘bloody Kansas’, where if you had a slave they murdered your entire family? Oh, there were white slaves too, or does that make me a racist. And the stealing of slaves, deporting them to the north, to become economoc slaves, is okay for you , too. Obviously you are like Grant, who believed he was above any person, and could kill anyone. may you have an interesting life.

          1. Yes and the former slave holders in the south founded the KKK to terrorize the blacks from voting and later to terrorize them into voting Democrat, they loathed Lincoln and all Republicans…

    2. Wrong. No slave was allowed to cross state boundaries. Slavery was optional, another freedom lost. Oh, there were slaves at the Alamo. One, and he was allowed to leave, alone. So odd!

      1. I take it you are talking about the slave named Joe. Let’s remember that Mexico did not accept Texas’ independence, and had banned slavery. As far as Mexico was concerned, slavery was illegal and illegitimate.

        Dictator Antonio Lopez de Sant Anna opposed the holding of black slaved by the white Texans and was for freeing them:

        His words:

        There is a considerable number of slaves in Texas who have been introduced by their masters under cover of certain questionable contracts, but who according to our laws should be free. Shall we permit those wretches to moan in chains any longer in a country whose kind laws protect the liberty of man without distinction of cast or color?”

        And as we know, the anti-slavery Mexicans won the battle.–And Joe worked as a cook for the Mexican President.

      2. The Confederate States may acquire new territory, and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States lying without the limits of the several States, and may permit them, at such times and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the territorial government, and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and territories shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

      3. please note the phrase:”the institution of negro slavery “as it now exists” in the Confederate States”

        In all such territory the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the territorial government, and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and territories shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

        1. Thanks for putting the truth out there, Dan.

          Ignorance of history will only lead to the recurrence of terrible things.

  23. I agree that the main focus should be on Old Glory- that is the flag that me and my family have pledged alegiance to – them longer than me. But I don’ t see anything wrong with flying another, smaller flag. If it’s something to do with heritage or family history I mean, and a lot of folks from the south are just as proud of that heritage as they are of being Americans. I can understand Zo’s point of view, but history runs deep in some folks- northerners as well as southerners, but if they recognize the freedoms woven into the Stars and Stripes, and are enjoying that freedom by flying another flag, I don’t know what the problem is.

    1. You’re beginning to sound like Sarah Palin! In pre WW2, USA pilots, serving in the RAF, used small USA flag patches. No English seemed to protest. Same in China. Are we still allowed to fly our state flag?

      1. Holy non-sequitir, batman!

        I believe that the people serving in the RAF were… Americans. And it’s SOP to have your flag sewn on your uniform if you’re serving in a multinational army…

    2. …the problem is freedom of speech and one of the ploys that liberals use is to make mountains out of molehills to throw the masses (referred to as dumb asses by some) off of the trail of freedom.

      But as much as freedom of speech is a problem, I will take it because the Truth requires that expression, for us to be able to discern.

      GB

  24. I understand the freedom of speech point. But I also know the problem of the Confederate flag. The first states to secede from the Union before the Civil War did so over slavery (Note: Not ALL of the states to secede did so over slavery, but most of them did). So it is hard not to think about those views when one flies the confederate flag.

    But again, we have freedom of expression.

    1. Wrong nutso. Slavery became an issue later in the war. It was the high taxation the north put on the south. The people were poor, unable to earn a decent wage due to tariffs on cotton and other products from the south. Thus the south was upset over said hi taxes, the unequal distribution of taxation. The argument over slaves came much later and many of the northern states were upset because they themselves would loose their slaves. Lincoln himself wanted to ship the slaves back to Africa, but fearing that would cost too much just decided to free them.

      1. Wrong. Taxation was an issue as early as the 1830s, and that did not cause any state to secede.

        Also, the states listed their reasons for leaving the Union in the “Ordinances of Secession,” and taxation was hardly ever mentioned. (If you are going to justify leaving with taxation, then at least mention it).

        Mississippi’s ordinance of secession is a good example of why the south seceded:

        Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

        That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

        The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

        The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

        The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

        It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

        It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

        It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

        It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

        It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

        Link: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

        I put the relavant details in bold….Slavery is indeed used as a justification for secession!

        Also, as I have quoted Alexander Stephens in a former quote, that is also a good source.

        Slavery, and not taxes, was the reason the lower south seceded.

        1. Kinda like making a mountain out of a mole hill. Read the CSA constitution. How would you like your farm and house burnt by USA soldiers? If still lost, read Kansas history 1850 to 1860. And, I am not going to do your research for you.

          1. Right, the CSA constitution is nearly identical to the US Constitution, but it has some key changes. Like, say, this one

            (4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

            Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.

            Or you could just have a look at this, by the poet laureate of the confederacy.

            http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ethnogenesis

            Check out the fourth verse…

    2. Hard to compress about 100 years of history, but the civil war was about money. Abe had slaves in the white house. One race seems to have used the CSA flag as a symbol. Slavery was not originated in the USA. It is so ironic to me, how a minority can achieve dominance, using our own laws against us, to enslave us. I guess melting pot is passe?

      1. The war was about “money” if we speak about southern economics. But then again, the south was economically dependent on cotton….which was directly farmed by slaves.

    3. You have been misguided. The southern states were alarmed at the growing power of the federal government and insisted on states rights. Lincoln was unwilling going to allow slavery to continue as long as the southern states remained part of the Union.

      1. Funny that the south was not so concerned at the size of the Federal Government back when they had the political edge. They only started to worry later when it became clear they were becoming the minority.

        And it is not true that Lincoln was unwilling to let slavery continue. He hated slavery, but he loved the Union more. He even proposed a constitutional amendment to allow slavery remain where it was.

    1. No where, no way, no place did I see ZO, in his piece refer to any flags other than the Confederate and Old Glory.

      I also do not remember it being a essay test or fill in the blanks.

      Quite creative to inject something completely off the subject, but neither germane, relevant or instructive.

      Thank you for introducing the new thread, but isn’t that what the liberals do?

      GB

    2. since the POW (not PWO)/MIA flag, and wounded warrior flag do not represent a country but an idea to be kept alive, it would not apply to what Zo was saying… and you call him a moron?…. have your mother help you with your next post…

    1. I really don’t like foreign flags, like Nazi flags in a dorm. But, Don’t tread on me, and CSA are pure American. And freedom is not about doing what you want, it is freedom from tryanny. During WWii, they used to say, save your conferate money, boys, the south will rise again. Usually by drunken soldiers, about to die. Everybody laughed. Now, no one does. Wha happen?

        1. So quick to forget that Lincoln was willing to allow slavery to continue for the southern states if they DIDNT secede.

    2. There. Right there. You have opened the window on the truth, now let’s look through it.

      “SHOULD BE ALLOWED”.

      You do not “ALLOW” an American citizen to do anything, it is his authority alone that decides what he does, your authority to stop it begins at the other guy’s nose.

  25. I went to school in the Midwest, kids would hang up the Confederate flag all the time in dorms and on their trucks.

    As an Indian from NJ, it freaked me out. haha

    1. Many Indians fought on the side of the Confederacy. They did so because they were promised statehood if the south won the war. Too bad, the United States made the same empty promise to the Native Americans during the Revolutionary War. The Delawares were promised statehood by the USA if they won, but…it never happened.

      1. Gee kris it sucks for you being an American and all huh? We keep letting your liberal ideas of fairness and social justice down huh? Perhaps its time for you to consider migration, Canada perhaps? Surely those libtards could make you happy with there moral relatism and PC culture. Just thinking of your happiness….

          1. Kris, did you know that when God created the earth, He created two people? Yes, and the names of those two people were Adam and Eve Smith.

            After that anyone who messed up had to take a different last name. Congratulations, you come from excellent stock.

            I was told that, as a young boy, by the preacher at my Grandma, Maggie Smith’s, funeral so I know it is true.

            The fact that the preacher’s last name was “Smith,” probably had noting to do with it.

            GB

            1. What does that have to do with anything? are you trying to contrast Mormonism to his ‘pointing out’ the confederates position on Native Americans? God created Man, then Woman. They were not smith (im trying to gather whether this is tongue and cheek about Mormonism or not – little relevance)

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