Are liberal ‘Christians’ leading homosexuals into hell? Read this before you decide being gay is not a sin

This is probably the best article I’ve ever read on this topic. It explains how liberal Christians who accept mainstream secular thought on homosexuality and refuse to call it a sin of which man needs repentance from Christ, how these liberals are actually doing far more harm than good.

The article centers around Rev. Steve Chalke in the UK who has abandoned the doctrines of Christianity and now teaches that homosexuality is not a sin, and that as a society we should help people who have same-sex attraction to live strong, healthy relationships. But this Christian Counselor from the UK argues that this is doing much harm to the gay community, potentially leading people to hell by offering them “their old sinful lives dressed up in more respectable clothes.”

To me this article isn’t about one man, Rev. Steve Chalke, but about a whole movement within the Christian church to accept homosexuality and reject what the Bible actually teaches us about it, that it is a perversion of what God actually created between Adam and Eve and that it is a sin that requires repentance.

Please read the whole thing because I believe it’s fantastic. I’ve bolded a few parts that really jumped out at me.

LIFE SITE NEWS – The office of Rev. Steve Chalke, the UK pastor who recently gained notoriety by his support for “gay marriage,” has reportedly been “swamped” with phone calls. A self-defined evangelical Christian pastor calling for Christians to accept homosexuality or same-sex attraction itself is such a novelty that the mainstream media has flooded the internet with the story.

Chalke had said that the real problem of the gay community is not their self-identification, but with the rampant promiscuity that harms them physically and spiritually. The solution, he said, is for Christians to “consider nurturing positive models for permanent and monogamous homosexual relationships.”

But one Christian counselor in the UK who famously lost her license for offering therapy to clients with unwanted same-sex attraction, has responded to Chalke saying that people suffering from unwanted same-sex attraction know full well that the “orientation” is itself the problem. Lesley Pilkington wrote a rebuttal to Chalke’s article for in which she says that Christians accepting homosexuality, and ultimately promoting the homosexualist ideology, are doing more harm than they know to vulnerable people who need help living chaste and moral lives.

People with same-sex attraction who want to live genuinely Christian or sexually moral lives, whether believers or not, have told her that “they feel they are not listened to when they express those thoughts to most professionals and some within the evangelical churches,” she said.

“My work then with helping those who desire to change their attractions for the same sex is made increasingly difficult by those in the church, who call themselves the ‘New Evangelicals,’ and who back same sex marriage.

“Steve Chalke is the most recent example of a high profile ‘evangelical’ who has now joined this group.”

In an interview with LSN, Pilkington cited serious problems with Chalke’s Christian theology. She and others in the evangelical and reform community in Britain have said by having denied fundamental Christian doctrine, notably the atonement for sin by Christ on the cross, Chalke has placed himself outside the Christian fold entirely. Having rejected the notion of sin, Pilkington argues, Chalke cannot offer people with same-sex attraction anything other than their old sinful lives dressed up in more respectable clothes.

Chalke, she said, is one of a growing cadre of people who reject Christian ideals in favor of the world’s new secularist ideologies and are offering gay people what the world offers: “the fog of deception, misinformation, hubris, good intentions and just plain lies.”

Those who do adhere to orthodox Christian beliefs about sin and redemption, she said, are able to show people a way of life that will bring them peace and ultimately eternal happiness.

“I am very aware,” she said, “of the painful and genuine struggles of those who are caught up in this life and we the church have been negligent in our duties of love and compassion to those who are same sex attracted,” she said.

But we must understand love as the Cross, as a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, and all love flows from that, within His word. Love is not defined as man’s feelings however strong and well intentioned but according to His loving boundaries who has made us.”

Christians, she said, have fallen into the habit of using the media’s terminology and referring to people like Steve Chalke in political terms as “liberals.” But in reality, and however politically incorrect it might sound, a person who denies the basic doctrines of Christianity is properly called an “apostate,” one who has abandoned his religion. In the case of Chalke, he has replaced Christianity with the relativistic, secularist dogmas pushed by the media.

And because he repeats the friendly-sounding platitudes of the modern secular left, he comes across as “plausible and indeed likable”. Pilkington said that perhaps “his motives are ‘good’” in that they are well-intentioned out of ignorance, but that this is a “deception” and she fears that “many, many will be taken in by him and others like him”.

“That is the perilous state we are in here in the UK in large measure and probably America. It’s people like Steve Chalke who are in fact dangerous.”

She relates an example of one client, a man struggling with homosexual impulses who wanted to live a genuine Christian life. This man listened to one of Chalke’s sermons “and was very moved”. In the sermon, Chalke spoke of the Christian church being “inclusive” to those who feel marginalized and excluded.

“Now we would all agree with that and that draws people in,” she said. “But if you listen to all that he says, he then denies the ‘sin’ aspect, and there is the strong suggestion that homosexuality is not sin.

“It totally confused my client and I had to spend a long time with him talking again about the whole gospel, the forgiveness of sin, and how central all that is.

Liberals, or more correctly those who are apostate, actually hate their people and the LGBT community for which they profess so much love, because they tell lies and lead their people into deception, and if there is no repentance, into hell.”

She added, “Its those who tell the truth and the whole gospel no matter how difficult who actually love their people.”

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  • Indiana

    As a Catholic I do not believe that being homosexual is a sin. I think homosexual acts are sinful as are heterosexual acts outside of marriage.

    • Of course, actions are what is sinful. But the point of the article is about Christians abandoning that idea and now accepting that homosexual acts are not sinful.

      And that is incongruent with scripture.

      • Indiana

        Indeed, what the Christians that support it use as their base for it is “love”.

        • 911Infidel

          The word love in English is too inclusive and misses the point from the original language of the New Testament. Those who embrace homosexuality in any form are using the word “eros” as an excuse. Scripture talks of two other forms of love which are Philo and Agape. Neither has anything to do with eros outside of marriage. Jesus also warned that keeping sin in one’s heart. even if one doesn’t act on its impulse, is the same as the one who carries out that impulse and will be judged the same in the next life.

          • Another reason to be eternally grateful for Grace. It’s the sin in the heart that’s the hardest to purge, and I’m pretty sure few humans ever manage the trick to 100% perfection.

            • 911Infidel

              If human effort could manage the trick to 100% perfection there would be no need of a Savior. Grace is a part of it. But sin starts in the mind. Cleaning out the mind, cleans out the heart. Which means some effort is required on the part of the believer. Choice and free will is still an impediment to the spiritual life. As Paul said ” but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.” Rom 7:23

              • I need a combination zamboni and bulldozer to get started on all the stuff in my mind. It ought to register as the thirteenth labor of Heracles.

                • 911Infidel

                  Or the punishment of Sisyphus. Great comment by the way.

                • Thanks! (Too many myth-takes today.)

          • Your insight of scripture is uplifting and inspiring, even so, we must always judge in rightousness, that we may bring all to the knowledge of G-D Jehovah and Christ Jesus lest any should perish in sin. Yet many choose the path that leads to destruction and the Apostate ( and there are many) who has their blood on their hands, for easy is the way of the Apostate but hard with peace is the way of salvation, a cup of trembling held steady only by faith in Jehovah G-D, his words, and in Jesus Christ, through who all are saved who believed.

            • 911Infidel

              Calling sin, sin… IS a judgement in righteousness. Go read the last two lines of the post. The lady is spot on. And for anyone to think that God will fail to judge a nation that embraces that which he has forbidden best go back in Scripture and look at what happened to the Canaanites and the cities of the plain.

              • Jude 1:7 is set as a example.
                Yet Angels sent by GOD, Lott and his family were saved, even in the mist of Judgement we see GOD sending angels to accomplish his will and saving man from his on understanding, and even so we read how many were still lost even after the angels came to bring Lott out of the city. It’s no wonder Christ said to Israel if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen what you have seen they would have repented. What a powerful statement by Christ. We can’t began to know all that Christ did while on earth but what he did, we know changed the world of mankind.
                I fear for this lost and perverted generation, their judgements are new to them and we know our GOD is not mocked, he laughs.

                • 911Infidel

                  God sent his own Son. and they killed Him. So He sent out his disciples as warners and judges of their generation. And all of them were murdered but one. Even today a wicked and adulterous generation is being warned by those who are saved. And again, those people are marginalized and some cases killed. The process repeats itself ad nauseum. God’s justice cannot sleep forever.

                • What you say is true, and Christ set the example for Christians, even unto death Christians are to be salt in this world in every area of life. Pagan worship Christians see today are the same evils that Christ saw during and before he came to earth in the flesh. Paganism is repant, tought in University, High Schools, even now in elementary schools, and in the halls of Washington,D.C. and published for the masses with excitment. I’m sure examples are not needed here.
                  Christians know Philppians 1:21 to their core, and by their faith in the words of G0D and Jesus Christ written in scripture, Christians push towards the mark knowing there are souls to be brought to the saviour who is their Lord.

                • 911Infidel

                  Outside of stating the obvious, what exactly is your point?

                • Orange Bears

                  If you’re a pastor, let me know where, because I will pray for a miracle that would allow me to pack and move to sit under your ministry.

                • 911Infidel

                  I take it you are just being sarcastic.

      • HarrietHT2

        “For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.'”
        Mark 7:21-23

      • white531

        With all due respect Scoop, I did not accept it.

        • BeyondPolls

          Just curious, why not?

      • Christians, the followers of Jesus Christ , the Son Of the living GOD Jehovah, Can Not Abandon Scripture. That’s the route of evil ,the Apostate. Christians doing other wise would be to make the words of GOD a lie, the scriptures a lie. Now then are Christians next to give up their faith that Christ was the first born of the resurrection? If so would that not be the end of Christian belief? the faith in Christ?. Christians say no and Christians follow the admonition of the scriptures as Paul scribe for us in
        Roman 3:4 Let God be true, and let every man be a liar. As it is written; “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.
        Christians who love GOD know who the Apostate, the Apostates are not revered nor are they respected by the servants of Christ, the Apostates are known for what they are…evil counslors who pervert the words of Jehovah GOD and Christ Jesus.

      • NWIGOP

        I would think a lot of people of faith tend to be in-congruent with scripture.

    • sjmom

      I am also a Catholic and believe homosexuality IS sin and to your point so is adultery. Sin must be confessed and repented in order to be forgiven. To lead people astray is also sin and this is what Rev. Chalke has done.

      • Indiana

        The Church does not teach that being gay is a sin.

        • HarrietHT2

          The true church teaches that man is born into sin; he’s on his way to hell no matter what he does — unless he believes Christ died and suffered on his behalf. Homosexual sin is but one manifestation of man’s sinful condition. There are many false teachers; the “church” to which you refer is among them.

          • Indiana

            The Catholic Church is the first Christian Church and therefore the true teacher.

            • white531

              Do you even realize what an ignorant statement you just made? Probably not, would be my guess.

              • Indiana

                Not ignorant at all.

              • Its a absolutely true. and can be traced back to Christ. Its the one and only Holy Apostolic church.
                There is only one truth (faith) cant be many.

            • 911Infidel

              No it wasn’t. Constantine started the Catholic Church in the 4th century AD. Christ started the FIrst Christian movement. Peter was no Pope…nor was he told to build a church upon this “rock”. That passage was speaking about Peter’s faith and that’s what Christ was going to build his church on. And secondly the Bible is the guidebook, not the Catholic Church. The teacher is the Holy Spirit.

              • Indiana

                The Apostle Peter founded the Catholic Church and sorry but I trust in the teachings of my church.

                • white531

                  No, Indiana. You trust in the indoctrination that you grew up with. I used to be a Catholic too, until I grew up and found religion.

                • Indiana

                  You found insanity.

                • 911Infidel

                  No he found the truth. You’re still lost.

                • Indiana


                • 911Infidel

                  Uh. Sorry kid but you are dead wrong. Try and prove that point in the Scripture. You can’t. I just gave you the proper exegesis and you keep comming back with false Catholic doctrine. I know the games. I played them once myself. I had the same problem as you do: “always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 3:7).

                  No catechism is superior to the Word of God. Catechism is just the words of men as such it is far too fallable to be compared to the inerrantcy of God’s Holy Word.

                • Indiana

                  I believe in one God,
                  the Father almighty,
                  maker of heaven and earth,
                  of all things visible and invisible.

                  I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
                  the Only Begotten Son of God,
                  born of the Father before all ages.
                  God from God, Light from Light,
                  true God from true God,
                  begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
                  through him all things were made.
                  For us men and for our salvation
                  he came down from heaven,
                  and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
                  and became man.
                  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
                  he suffered death and was buried,
                  and rose again on the third day
                  in accordance with the Scriptures.
                  He ascended into heaven
                  and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
                  He will come again in glory
                  to judge the living and the dead
                  and his kingdom will have no end.

                  I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
                  who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
                  who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
                  who has spoken through the prophets.

                  I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
                  I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
                  and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
                  and the life of the world to come.

                • 911Infidel

                  Great. So does the devil. How are you any better than him? You call the Word of God crap, while Satan bows when confronted with it.

                • Indiana

                  I would say you and white have found evil.

                • Indiana

                  I have answered to many comment and I believe I called white’s comments on gays crap.

                • Can you put into your own words why you believe? Without reciting the creed or whatever it is from the church?

                • Indiana

                  Because I believe with my heart and soul that Christ founded the Catholic Church and chose Peter to lead his church. I believe in the doctrine and teachings.

                • las1

                  Actually there ABiC… it’s the Nicean Creed tha Indiana is quoting. I know it well being an Anglican at one time. The creed is actually very good. I too believe in “one holy, catholic and apostolic church”. Catholic means universal.

                  Notice however, it does NOT say one holy Roman Catholic church. Catholic dogma claims as Roman things which are NOT under the authority of Rome. The Council of Nicea was another such council which Rome subsumes for itself. The council was called if anything for the Bishop of Alexandria to combat the Arian heresy. But Constantine called it’s creation so it also had a political purpose.

                  The council was not even attended by the Bishop of Rome Sylvester I. He sent two legates in his stead. The 6th Canon of the council puts Rome on an equal footing with all other episcopates in the Christian world at the time. The major episcopates included Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Rome, and Constantinople. What makes Canon 6 of the council important for today, and stands against the claims of Rome, is that it clearly demonstrated for history that there was no universal “head” over all the churches. It was not even a concept in the early Christian church. This is a truth that Rome stridently tries to deny using the fog of Church history and false claims. Canon 6 of the NIcean Council clearly give each episcopate authority within and under his own see. This blows the Roman claim out of the water.

                  But we’ve been down this road before haven’t we… that’s for sure.

                • Indiana,

                  Be fair, it is not the catholic church but the Roman Catholic church you are talking about and it is a big difference since there was no such thing as RCC until much later in church history.

                  I will refer to my post above.

                • ABC – sorry to keep using your post but can’t reply to Las1 on this. The RCC has changed a sentence in it. I am quite shocked and surprised. I saw Las1’s post and started to reread Inidana’s post when the phrase “begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father” caught my eye. That phrase did not make any sense to me so I looked it up and found this…

                  Beginning Nov. 27, [2011] when Catholics recite the Nicene Creed at Sunday Mass, they’ll profess that Jesus Christ is “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father” rather than “one in Being with the Father.”

                  Granted, in and of itself it tends to speak the same but if they want to be clear, they could simply state, “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father” which is much clearer. I would think one would want to clear things up more than muddy the waters.

                • JoeMontana16

                  You have to be baptized to gain forgiveness??

                • Indiana

                  From original sin.

                • Indiana

                  Than there is also confession or as it is officially called: the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

                • conservativecanadian1

                  The Bible is clear that confession to a priest is unnecessary.

                  1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

                  Also, it’s not baptism that gains forgiveness.
                  Romans 10:9,
                  If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

                  Can you show me in the Bible where baptism cleanses us of sin.

                • crosshr

                  absolute yes #16. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 – Plan of Salvation

                  Mathew 28: 19, 20 – Great Commission from Jesus !

                  Salvation has 3 elements 1. Repent – Godly sorrow for my transgressions
                  I DIE to all my past wrongful acts

                  2. Baptism – Burial in a watery Grave, Emerge or Dip
                  under the water as were Jesus in the tomb

                  3. Receive the Holy Ghost – God as the Holy Spirit moves
                  in my heart and take residence as long as I
                  don’t vacate Him. Therefore, I walk in new
                  life expected to bear fruit of the Holy Spirit

                • ryanomaniac

                  I’d have to disagree. You don’t get baptized to gain salvation. You get baptized to show you’re already saved.

                • Sara

                  No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:11 NIV84)

                  Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (Romans 1:5 NIV84)

                  We become “baptized” by the Holy Spirit (born again) when we whole-heartedly accept God’s grace through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. We are then able to obey God out of love rather than just following the rules (like the Pharisees did).

                  In reading the following, substitute the word “baptized” for the word “circumcised”.

                  But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:21-31 NIV84)

                  No work of man (circumcision OR baptism) can “earn” forgiveness.

                • NCHokie02

                  As most are saying, no. Baptism is an outward expression of your faith and following of Christ. Thats why many churches don’t baptize children, because they are too young to understand the full weight of their sin and what giving their life to Christ really means.

                • While I do agree with you 911, I would hope that there is a better understanding of catechism. It is a form of teaching and used rightly is a great way of learning the Scriptures. I think of Luther’s Heidelberg, Westminster, London Baptist Confession, Philadelphia, etc. are all catechisms. They do come from their own theological perspective with the London Baptist differing from Westminster on baptism.

                  In fact, I would argue that we should bring back the teaching methodology that has been used for thousands of years in Christianity (even outside Catholicism).

                  I also agree that Peter did not found the Roman Catholic church. The confusion does lie with when does Rome separate itself from the catholic church (small c for universal). Many scholars see it happening in either two general time frames, within the 600AD’s when Gregory the Great was essentially known as pope. He is the founder of the Gregorian chant. The other time is the great schism of 1078AD (sorry approx. date coming off the top of my head) where the Western church threw out the Eastern church and vice-versa. It is when most known as Roman Catholic Church.

                  The church Fathers belong to the whole church though many in RCC would try to make one think that every single one of them was Roman Catholic. It is the sad state of affairs when one allows this false assumption to go unchallenged for so long that many believe it to be true. Any way, I diverged from my original intent that you would not throw catechism, itself under the bus…

                • 911Infidel

                  Dude I had 23 years of Catholic Catechism. That’s all I heard in 12 years of Catholic School. No Catechism can take the place of Scripture. Catechism is man’s attempt to explain things. Scripture is the Oracles of God. It is His wisdom that I subscribe to. I reject all attempts to dilute Scripture with catechism.

                • Whoa, settle down. Reread, what I did write. I am in no way arguing that catechism takes the place of Scripture at all. Nor, do I have any desire to dilute the Scriptures. I am sorry that your experience with RCC catechism has made this word so toxic to you. However, there is nothing I can do to change the abuses that were done.

                  Nonetheless, if you were to look at the Westminster Catechism (which is completely Protestant), you will see that it does actually do the task of trying to teach Scripture. The term, catechism, at its root is just a form of teaching. Generally, it is in a question and answer form. We all learn Scripture from different forms of teaching from straight memorization to listening to expository preaching. And catechism when properly used is a wonderful tool in helping people remember Scripture. If someone was to ask you who is God, you would answer with a Scripture reference, right? The answer may look like this: God is a Spirit, and does not have a body like men (Jn 4:24; 2 Cor 3:17; 1 Tim 1:17). You may notice that I took that directly from the Westminster shorter catechism.

                  Granted, just like anything else, it can become its own enemy when one does not take the task of actually looking up the Scripture references or just depend on that answer instead of knowing the actual Scripture itself. Though the RCC catechism may have diluted God’s Word, I can tell you that is not what catechism is nor what those who wrote any of the famous Protestant catechisms would have desired. It is just a teaching tool helping people learn the Bible in a form that makes memorization a bit easier.

                • Conservative_Hippie

                  Amen! Sola Scriptura!

                • crosshr

                  your piece of news are never found in the Bible, is it possible your priest or pope lie to you ?

                • conservativecanadian1

                  My mother in law is a Catholic AND a Christian. But there are many Catholics who are not Christians. I had to leave the Catholic Church before I became a Christian.

                  There is a difference between religion and faith. I find Catholicism concentrates too much on the religion aspect rather than the faith aspect.

                  My mother in law will not pray to Mary. She feels it’s blasphemous as it goes against the teachings of the Bible, which will always trump the teachings of the Catholic Church.

                • Indiana

                  Ridiculous. The Catholic Church is the original Christian Church. I pray the Rosary at my church. Sorry but we will celebrate the Virgin Mary.

                • and rightfully so indiana . dont ever let someone tell you what the bible “really means”
                  its because of your faith the WORLD has the bible.

                • Indiana

                  What do you think everyone here has been trying to do?

                • AllantheK

                  Did you get to a final (reliable) answer on your question(s)?

              • Well if were going to be telling the homosexuals the truth might as well tell the christians in error the truth too right?

                There is only ONE true faith that is Catholicism period , end of story.

                EVERY SINGLE quote above comes from the bible that the Catholic church compiled preserved and copied(via the monks) They compiled it and hold the authority of its interpretation being the decided what books would and would not go in it(ALL 73 books, heritics took some out)

                its foolish and your lying to yourself if your try to tell us what it means. We know what the bible says and means ……. its because of the catholic church there is a bible!

                • 911Infidel

                  Historical evidence says otherwise. Catholics didn’t compile anything. Paul’s letters were already part of church cannon in the early Berean Church which was not Catholic by the way. You can thank Constantine for starting the Catholic Church. Nice try, but the histocracy of your beliefs is inconsistent with the facts.

                • crosshr

                  Not according to the Bible. I know your truth and your story end with you. You must be open minded in order to comprehend what the Bible says apart from what man says. Catholic persecuted and caused the dark ages era by protecting access to the Bible in a personal level except what these leaders taught.That is what I call heretic.

                • It is because of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God the Bible exists.

                • 911Infidel

                  ABC its time to ban Indiana. I think we’re done with her/him.

                • I know you know now that I did. Well done fellow soldiers. Maybe we gave him enough to maybe think on. We can hope and pray so.

                • 911Infidel

                  Thanks again. We’ll see about that. Took me almost 5 years AFTER I heard the Gospel preached to get the point. Took a trip to the tropics working for an Infantry Brigade to wake me up out of my Catholic delusions.

                • Wish I knew that before I responded to him/her…..nuts!!!

                • Conservative_Hippie

                  I would like to go on record as disagreeing with the ban on Indiana. I know I’m just just a peon here, but I don’t see where he/she maliciously voilated the comment policy?

                • Conservative_Hippie


                • Sorry C_Brother I can’t reply to the other one. I left Indiana on for 2 days and while we all were trying to get points across to each other, he included, he started getting a little too many people annoyed with his name calling and projections. You’re not a pion C. You are more than entitled to your opinion and I can understand it. I didn’t want to do it, and perhaps Scoop can let him back on if he wants to. But he did insult a few folks throughout the time here and I had a few complaints including his responses to a couple of mine.

                • Conservative_Hippie

                  I didn’t read the name-calling that you referred to. Of course if he resorts to name-calling that’s different. If he’s just offending people, becuase he’s offering a different opinion – but doing it in a respectful way then that is allowed, isn’t it? Thanks for your kind response AbC! It’s all good 🙂

            • white531

              Hogwash, would be my best reply to such nonsense.

              • Indiana

                Ok Pier Morgan. You’re an incredibly stupid man aren’t you?

                • white531

                  Indiana, until your last statement, we were simply having a conversation where we did not agree. Please go back and look at all my responses to your comments, and tell me one instance, where I called you stupid, or otherwise denigrated your person.

                • Indiana

                  “Hogwash, would be my best reply to such nonsense”

                  Totally something Piers Morgan would say.

                • He’s not calling you stupid though. No personal attacks ok?

                • Indiana

                  1) Freedom of speech.
                  2) I believe any phrase that sounds like it comes from Piers Morgan should be mocked.

                • Freedom of speech, within the rules The Right Scoop has laid down. It’s his site, we are guests here who abide by the rules of conduct. One of those rules is no personal attacks please.

                • Indiana

                  It was not a personal attack. It was mocking the comment white made, that sounded like something Piers Morgan would say, with something Piers Morgan actually said.

                • 12grace

                  I feel badly that you feel picked on. I think it is positive that we are expressing our feelings and thoughts about our G-d and his son.

                  It is not easy to talk about religious differences.

                • 911Infidel

                  Careful Indiana. We don’t do the name calling thing here. You had your say. You made your points. Either chill or move on.

            • crosshr

              not true.

              • Indiana

                That it wasn’t the first Christian Church?

            • 12grace

              Many Christians get caught up in the “business of church” that is, they praise denominations and doctrines instead of loving G-d and his precious, son. Christians need to understand that no church or doctrine is better than another if they are ALL serving the Lord.

              • Indiana

                I am Catholic

                • I’m a Christian.

                • Indiana

                  I’m a Catholic.

                • I’m a follower of Christ.

                • Indiana

                  As am I. You deny this because I have belief in the teachings of my church?

                • I don’t deny, I don’t know- I pray you are, but your comments against Scriptures that some of us have given tell me you don’t know the Word enough. You seem to trust more in the tradition of the catholic church than you do in Scriptures which is the Word of God.

                • Indiana

                  The tradition of the Church is rooted in scripture.

                • NWIGOP

                  I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.

                  1 Timothy 2:12

                  Clearly there are some exceptions than? Because I am sure society and yourself would not let this be.

                • kssturgis62

                  Indiana I was born and raised Catholic. Strict Catholic, Very Strict, in a huge Polish Catholic Family. The church does not teach that Jesus Christ is the Salvation you need.

                  You worship Idols and you pray to them. You pray to the Statue of Mary, Mary cannot forgive you of your sins, she cannot get you into heaven. You pray at the Stations of the Cross all Idols at Easter. The Church is Covered in Black Sack Cloth, all Statues covered up during Lent, and we are taught and told Jesus is not there. JESUS IS THERE HE IS ALIVE AND WELL AND OFF THE CROSS. You pray to the Crucifex, and on Good Friday there were times we kissed it.

                  You pray on a Rosary, with Repetitive Prayers that mean nothing and do nothing for you. You go and Confess your sins to a Priest, who cannot take them to God for you. That Priest cannot Forgive you or have you be forgiven of your sins just because you say so many prayers on a rosary which are NOT FROM YOUR HEART, but in your Brain as MEMORIZED through the Sacraments that you received from going to the church.

                  The Catholic Church is a Church, built by the romans who Killed Christ. The Romans put Jesus on the Cross to die. Yes the Jews turned against him, But the ROMANS put him on the Cross to die. Pontias Pilate Washed his hands, and what does a Priest do during Communion he WASHES HIS HANDS. Rome built the Church and used the Lord’s word to keep people from fleeing the roman empire. Until then they were putting Christians to DEATH.

                  PETER IS NOT THE 1st POPE and the Pope is not the Closest person to God. The Pop has no insight on God and cannot bless you, make people saints, or state what is and what is not a miracle.

                  Catholics have added books to the Bible that are not true. Look at Maccabees. Catholics are told to have a bible in their House, but not to read it, you might find out the truth.

                  In the Catholic Church the Same Sermon is given every sunday year after year. There is nothing different or no new reading read.

                  Indiana ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE YOU. his Blood was shed from the tops of his head to the tips of his toes for you. He changed my filthy rags to white as snow. The Catholic Church I know how hard it is to break free from it. It is so ingrained in you, and you don’t need a book, a bible, or a hymnal, because it is repetitive, because the same thing is done over and over and it does not change.

                  The Catholic Church is the PHARISEES. The Catholic Church is who JESUS threw out of the Temple.

                  The Catholic church in their Church, Gambling, Beer Tents on their lawns, Fairs, everything that Jesus said no to.

                  Indiana READ YOUR BIBLE A KJV ONE AND LEARN AND START IN MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE AND JOHN. then you will Understand the Salvation and the Loving Grace of Christ.

                  I will be Praying for you.

                • 12grace

                  I understand that you belong to the Catholic denomination but what about the bigger picture? Doesn’t your denomination build it’s doctrine around the love of G-d and his son?

                  Don’t ALL Christians love G-d and his son?

                  I’m not trying to give you a hard time, I. I just don’t get why can’t we all join hands as lovers and believers in Christ.

                • meyou

                  Hardly ever come to RS anymore, stumbled on this article so will comment (if it goes through–might get wiped out!). I, too, am Roman Catholic, and see, hear, and read a lot of criticism of the Church (some of it is quite humerous). Jesus told Peter he was the rock, not rocks. There is ONE Roman Catholic church; there are over 30,000 protestant churches, which can be confirmed if you do the research. BTW, we do not worship or adore Mary. We pray for her intercession, since she is the mother of God. If her name was Julie, or Amber, or Ashley, or Shaniqua we’d honor her the same. I often say decades of the rosary for Catholic-haters. And I focus on every repetitive prayer (we repeat because Paul told us to pray always, which is very hard to do!)

                • crosshr

                  I can SCRATCH your ear for you if that would make you feel better meyou !

                • I always loved the “one RCC and 30,000 protestant churches” because the underbelly of it all is that it is so untrue. If you want to, look up how many different type of RCC’s there are just in the US. You have the charismatic wing, the Mass only in Latin, the Liberal wing, the conservative wing, the Liberation theology wing, the syncretistic wing which is huge when you look at the Philippines, etc. I could go on and on. There are RCC who like the pope but do not follow what he says, there are RCC’s that live by every word he speaks.

                  It is a bit hypocritical to claim that RCC is just one when it is splintered just as much as Protestants. When the US Bishops start following the Pope on everything he says, you let me know.

                  By the way, Mary is dead. She could not intercede for you anymore than Moses can for Israel. We only have one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. It was Jesus who states, “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” (Mat 6:7 NKJ)

                • 12grace

                  I think it is good that we can have this healthy discussion about differences in faith. It shows that we are thinking about and loving HIM. And too, this is not a PC discussion.

                • Conservative_Hippie

                  Pur, I agree 100% with you up to the last paragraph. I don’t believe Mary is dead, although I agree she is not the mediator between God and Man. Maybe I misunderstood you?

                • 12grace

                  Thank you for your comment, m.

                  Welcome to RS. As you can tell we have some very passionate people on this site. And most of the people on this site are really wonderful and patriotic.

                  We do from time to time have differences of opinion and I personally think that’s a good thing. We aren’t clones or PC. smile

                  I laughed about your comment that Jesus told Peter that he was a rock and not that he rocks. Smile.

                  My point is that I would like Christians of all denominations to join hands as we all love G-d and his son and we just interpret that love and commitment to HIM in different ways.

                • kssturgis62

                  The Lord say do not be Repetitive, the Lord warned against being hypocrites like the Pharisees.

                  You pray from your heart. The Hail Mary asks for mary to forgive you of your sins, she cannot, I REPEAT she CANNOT be an intercessory between you and the Lord. I go directly to God. I get on my knees and Say Jesus I come before you, I ask for prayer over my country. Then I go on from there. I say I am sorry directly to him, pray from your heart. You don’t need a memorized prayer, you have a brain one that God gave you, to think and be use it.

                  Also you do worship and adore mary. you pray to her statue. you leave flowers for her at Weddings. That is Idol Worship. The Catholic Church goes against many things that the Lord said not to do.

                  I am not a Reformed Catholic by the way, I am a CHIRSTIAN saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

                • there are not MANY TRUTHS
                  there is only ONE.
                  so for those who want to know and live by the truth it does matter.
                  You dont have to hate others who follow different beliefs but be accurate
                  they are NOT the same. Thats falling into relativism

                • crosshr

                  I like your comment for the reason there is but only one TRUTH, that is the Lord Jesus!

                  No man, No church or any other doctrine. BAR NONE !

                • 12grace

                  I think you are right, they are not the same, but there is some commonality. The common feature here is that we all love G-d and his son.

                • Indiana

                  I don’t see Catholicism as a denomination. I see the Protestant faiths as denominations. Doctrine is built around scripture and 2000 years of understandings of the scriptures.

                • Sara

                  This is the reason I joined Bible Study Fellowship. At the location I attend, there are over 500 women – Catholic and Protestant. We ALL agree that there is only ONE truth to the Bible.

                  But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:21-31 NIV84)

                  We are saved by grace – not works — BUT, faith produces works.

                  We can’t help it! We just love God so much (because He first loved us!) that we feel compelled to obey Him.

                • Indiana

                  Matthew Chapter 5 Verses 10-12
                  10. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
                  11. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me.
                  12. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.h Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

                • Sara

                  I hope that you don’t feel that what I said in my post was meant to persecute you. On the contrary – I was generally agreeing with you.

                • There are many persecuted for Christ, not all belong to the Catholic church.

                • Indiana

                  Mostly. throughout history

                • 12grace

                  I understand why you can’t join hands with other dominations or interpretations of the Christian faith because you believe that your faith is the ONLY way to salvation. I have a different point of view about this issue. I think G-d loves us all and doesn’t hold out on his blessings because we don’t subscribe to one particular doctrine.

                • conservativecanadian1

                  In some cases, being Catholic and being Christian do not go hand in hand. Now I’m not saying that’s true in your case…I don’t know you…but not all Catholics are Christians.

                  Saying the Hail Mary, Lord’s Prayer and Apostles’ Creed is merely ‘doing’ religion, not having faith. It’s no difference than the Pharisees in Jesus’ time telling people how many steps they walk is a violation of the Sabbath day.

                • Indiana

                  Ridiculous. The Catholic Church is the original Christian Church. Is is stupid to say that those who would pray the Hail Mary, Our Father and Nicene Creed do not in one way or another exhibit faith. I find that insulting.

              • crosshr

                AMEN and Amen !

                No church name will ever be or has ever been mentioned in Heaven. Our names will !

                • Shhh, don’t tell that to the Baptists that float around here….LOL

                • 12grace

                  Yes, I don’t think G-d will open the “book of life” and it will only have the names of people that adhere to one domination. smile.

            • BeyondPolls

              I don’t want to start a theological argument, but that’s just not true…

            • No, the Catholic church teaches to pray to Mary and the saints. One of the ten commandments about worshiping false idols was left out in the Catholic Bible. They teach you must confess your sin to a priest which is not Biblical. Only God can forgive sin. They may have been the first church, but I think they have strayed from the truth. IMO.

        • sjmom

          The Bible does.

          • Indiana

            The Catholic Church does not.

            • Which is more authoritative, God’s Word or a man’s religion?

              • Indiana

                The Catholic Church was founded by the Apostle Peter.

                • The true Church is founded by, and built upon the Rock of Salvation, Jesus Christ. The church is made up of true believers in Christ.

                  Jesus is the ROCK.

                  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
                  Deuteronomy 32:4

                  The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer.
                  2 Samuel 2:22

                  The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
                  Psalm 18:2

                  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
                  Romans 9:33

                  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
                  1 Corinthians 10:4

                  And interestingly Peter himself realizes this:

                  If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                  1 Peter 2:3-5

                  The Rock is Christ. He is also referred to as the stumbling block, the cornerstone and the capstone. In all verses, Christ is the Rock, Petra, the foundation of His church.

                  Why would Christ build His church on a man when all men are fallen? Why Peter? Because He proclaimed Christ is the Son of the Living God? Because God revealed that to him? What about a couple of minutes later when Jesus had to rebuke him saying “Get thee behind be Satan!” ?

                  John the Baptist was praised by Jesus, who said of him, Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist..
                  Why wasn’t the church built upon John? Or John the Beloved who was translated to heaven to write the visions? Or Andrew who was a disciple before Peter was? What about Paul who was given knowledge of Christ by Christ Himself? Because Jesus did not found the church on any human. He is the foundation. Jesus is the rock. The solid rock of our foundation.

                • Indiana

                  I respectfully disagree.

                • OK. That’s your prerogative.

                • crosshr

                  you have the right to disagree, doesn’t mean you’re right. let’s continue on in further study here on this Scoop forum. Much great knowledge are shared through study and life experiences, so enriching

                • Indiana

                  I can say the same of you sir. Before you enter in the debate it is good to understand your phrase.

                • conservativecanadian1

                  So Indiana, do I have this right. You disagree with the teachings of the Bible?

                • Indiana

                  I believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church which have been derived from scripture.

                • Amen ABC

                • Thank you brother.

                • sjmom

                  The Church was founded by Jesus Christ.

                • Indiana

                  The Catholic Church

            • sjmom

              Do you realize you just disrespected God’s Word? As a Catholic I listen every week at Mass to readings from Scripture so if the Church doesn’t believe in the Bible they should stop using it and be honest enough to tell the Faithful their words are more important than the Word of God. In that case I’d be out the door.

              I think you better check with a priest before saying these things.

              • Indiana

                I have been taught by Priest’s and well educated Theologians.

        • 911Infidel

          Really? Then you’re in the wrong Church. “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” Leviticus 18:22. Or just Read Romans 1.

          • Indiana

            I have stated that I am a Roman Catholic. The Catholic Church respects and loves the homosexual person the same as it does the heterosexual. Catholicism teaches that homosexual people must be treated with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every act or thought of hatred, violence, or persecution toward the homosexual is condemned. I even feel confident saying that we love them a lot.

            • 911Infidel

              I’m a former Catholic and I am well-aware after 23 years in that Church of what they are. That being said, you ignor the Scriptural condemnation of homosexuality under the rubric of providing “love” to them. Love is calling sin, sin in an effort to save their souls.

              • Indiana

                I am well aware after 20 years as well of what they are, as well as being in catholic school for a good part of my life.

                CCC 2358

                • 911Infidel

                  Then we have something in common. I spent all 12 years of Grade School and HS in Catholic School.

                  But you still miss the mark, spiritually speaking. And it would seem that everyone in here knows that but you.

            • white531

              Until they put their hands on a child in their care. What then, Indiana? Do you then still love and respect them?

              • Indiana

                Are you saying that heterosexuals have never molested children?

                • white531

                  Are you saying that Priests are not heterosexuals?

                • Indiana

                  I wasn’t talking about priests. I believe you were implying that just because someone would is gay that they and they alone are harm to children. If you believe that than go jump over a cliff with the Westboro Baptist Church.

            • You can respect and show more compassion by telling someone the truth of God’s love though Christ’s sacrifice than you can by ignoring their eternal destination. This goes for anyone, not just homosexuals. But one has to know they are a sinner before they understand that Christ died for their sin as a way to our Father in heaven.

            • sjmom

              You can treat someone with respect and and still call sin a sin. Two different subjects.

              • Indiana

                Yet I am at difference as to what you declare the sin to be

                • Sara

                  Do you believe that any sexual act outside of marriage is a sin?

                • Indiana

                  As a Catholic I do not believe that being homosexual is a sin. I think homosexual acts are sinful as are heterosexual acts outside of marriage.

            • conservativecanadian1

              I’m not Catholic (used to be). Indiana, we are taught to love everyone. Jesus loved everyone, but NEVER at the expense of truth. When the adulterous woman was going to be stoned, Jesus stopped them but then he turned to the woman and said “Go and sin no more.”

              He loved her and did not want to see her hurt, yet still acknowledged her sin. That is the example we are to follow. We can acknowledge and abhor the sin and still love the sinner.

              • Indiana

                Yet I do not see that homosexuality is a sin. I do not see that being gay is a sin which is the argument that I have been a part of all night.

                • conservativecanadian1

                  But in the end, it’s what God thinks, not us. The Bible is clear, Indiana. God condemns homosexuality. If “the church” deems it otherwise, then it is not a Bible believing church. If you’re happy with that, then have at it.

            • 12grace

              About Love. If your 5 year old child wants to run out in front of a moving car as a loving parent, you stop your child from taking this action and getting hurt or worse. So it is with the body of Christ, the bible tells us homosexual behavior is an abomination, if we support it, we are allowing our family ( in Christ) to possibly lose Salvation. Love sometimes means correction and it does not have to be done in a mean way but to remind HIS children about HIS word on the matter. We have to live IN the world not OF it.

              • Indiana

                If God asked you to kill your child would you?

                • What does that have to do with what 12grace said?

                  But then again, Abraham was about to sacrifice Issac because God asked him to…

                • Indiana

                  but would you?

                • Again, what does that have to do with what 12grace said? How can I answer that? God has never asked me to. He wouldn’t because His asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac was to test Abraham’s faith, to show that God Himself would provide the sacrifice and also as a precursor to the Christ as our ultimate sacrifice.

                • Indiana

                  Again I have answered to about 120 attacks since last night. But if it wasn’t a test? Would you? Do you eat shellfish?

                • 12grace

                  What is your point, I?

                • crosshr

                  sorry ABiC, did not notice to read your comment, I posted same answer.

                • lol. No problem brother. It’s worth repeating. But you know, I did have to boot Indiana for a while right? I didn’t want to- but he was being obnoxious to too many.

                • crosshr

                  Abraham did as his son Isaac were to be offered as a sacrifice. But don’t be too close mindedness, His son already died to cover that foolish part of your arrogant negative question.

        • shukov

          Dunno about “The Church” but the bible is clear.

        • 3seven77

          Really? Which church are you speaking of? Please state something specific instead of using generalities such as “The Church”.

          • Indiana

            The Roman Catholic Church

        • Which “The Church” could that be? All the ones I’ve ever been to sure teach that it’s a sin. Of course, the best churches are led by folks who believe in loving the sinner, not the sin. Otherwise a lot of us would never be welcome in any church.

          • Indiana

            The Roman Catholic Church sir.

            • As long as it isn’t one of those crazy spinoff religions, then. Like they have in America.

              • Indiana

                Many faiths, many beliefs and to the disappointment among all faiths there are those with no faith.

        • badbadlibs

          Then the church is wrong. Romans 3:4

          • Indiana

            No they are not.

          • Indiana

            No IT is not

            • badbadlibs

              Did you even bother reading the Scripture I posted?

              • Indiana

                No because it was the King James version which I do not subscribe to.

                • sjmom

                  Indiana, you have just shown your ignorance because there are “Catholic” translations of the Bible. Apparently, you also do not attend Bible studies in your parish which most have these days. Which translation of the Bible you use is not important because if we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us through Scripture He will give us wisdom to know what God is saying to us.

                  As a Catholic I read the Bible every day and have found it to be instructional as well as revelatory. You’re not going to know what the Lord has said until you read and study the Word. BTW I know a layman who took an online Bible course sponsored by the Church, so there are many ways you have to learn if you are really interested.

                • Indiana

                  I attended Catholic school which is the equivalent. I am not interested.

              • Don’t feel bad badbad. He/she didn’t read any of the Scriptures any of us posted. sigh

                • sjmom

                  ABC, don’t sigh. As you know I’m Catholic and we’re not all like Indiana. There’s no excuse for not reading the Bible because there are Catholic translations if you prefer, Bible studies in most parishes and online Bible courses given by the Church and at every Mass there is a reading from the OT, one from the NT and a Gospel. Me, I read the KJV because it is the closest to the original translation.

                  PS. I don’t think any priest would say homosexuality is NOT a sin.

                • I’m not sighing because of what church he/she goes to. I’m sighing because Indiana keeps saying they read a Bible, yet completely ignore or put down the Scriptures we’ve all been laying out for him/her. It’s sad to me.
                  Just as there are some in the Catholic church who don’t know Scriptures, there are some in every denomination who have never touched a Bible except to dust it. 🙁

                • Or use it as a doorstop.

                • OH sure! NOW there’s a reply button 😉

                  No kidding. 🙁

                • Technically, homosexuality isn’t a sin. The ACT of gay-sex is a sin. But it is the homosexual man’s cross to bear to be a good witness, and resist his impulses to lay down with another man.

                  We ALL have crosses to bear, and as long as the homosexual bears his cross well…he has not sinned.

                • white531

                  And just how many, Brian, resist the impulse? Homosexuals, as a group, probably engage in sexual acts far more than ordinary people. You would have me believe, that these people have embraced this culture, and then abstain?

                  Do you have such little respect for my intelligence?

                • Do you believe me to be so gullible that I should think you know exactly how many gays there are, and just how many gave in to their temptations?!? Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of humanity, and only recently has it become “accepted”. But I assure you, there are MANY MANY MANY gay people that still live the teachings of Christ, and simply work very hard to ignore their impulses.

                  Do many of them screw up…sure. Doesn’t mean they “accept it”, nor does it mean they give up. Hell, we all screw up. Drug addicts fall off the wagon. Alcoholics relapse. Womanizers cheat. Abusers lose their temper. WE ALL have our crosses to bear…but I believe it was Jesus that said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”…

                • badbadlibs

                  What a shame.

        • Poncho4ever

          It’s more important what the Word of God teaches. And the Bible consistently teaches that sinful thoughts and actions flow out of a fallen and sinful heart that is in need of regeneration and condemned without Christ. Unbelief is sin. Thus “being” homosexual is sinful in that it is one manifestation of unbelief and an unregenerate heart. One of the first and greatest errors of the Roman Catholic Church is the elevation of church teaching and human tradition to the same level of authority as Scripture. Invariably, when there is a conflict between the two, Scripture is reinterpreted to conform to church teaching. Stop resting on what your church teaches and read the Bible for yourself. It’s now available in english, too!

          • Indiana

            I have read my New American Bible sir and I believe in the teachings of my church.

        • crakpot

          There is no such thing as “being gay”
          There is only the sinful behavior of a free will, however weak or tempted one is.

        • 08hayabusa

          (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God. . .

          • Indiana

            You attempt to discredit me through a Bible verse you most likely don’t understand?

            • I’m warning you one time now Indiana. 08hayabusa mentions scripture verses which pertain to this thread, yet you know on who’s authority that they don’t understand it?
              How is he/she or any of us for that matter trying to discredit you by showing you scripture after scripture to answer your questions or to show you the difference between what you say you believe through your church and what Scripture says? If there’s a difference, it is not US who is discrediting YOU, it is the Word of God shedding truth on what you’ve been taught by men.

              • Indiana

                I am getting about 10 attack each time I reload to I am skimming and answering the shortest way I can.

                • We are not attacking. We are quoting scriptures and asking questions. And yes, I can understand that, because I’m on the 4th new alert of 13 new ones I just got.

                • Indiana

                  Yes you are attacking. You are trolling. Yes you are quoting what you most likely don’t understand nor put into full context. Anyone can type up scripture and yet not understand it. It remind me of a quote from President Reagan:

                  How do you tell a communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

    • white531

      So you do not believe being homosexual is a sin, but you believe homosexual acts ARE sinful. So, following that thought, you believe that large numbers of Homosexuals believe in being Homosexual, but are not performing Homosexual acts. That about right?

      Whatever you are smoking, must be really good stuff.

      • Indiana

        The Catholic Church respects and loves the homosexual person the same as it does the heterosexual. Catholicism teaches that homosexual people must be treated with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every act or thought of hatred, violence, or persecution toward the homosexual is condemned.

        • white531

          Only one slight problem. I’m not Catholic. I don’t suffer from Catholic delusions.

          The Catholic Church teaches that crap, because a large number of their Priests dream about the sex they are denied, by their vows. The only ones who suffer from this, are the young boys in their care. We’ve all seen how that worked out.

          • Indiana

            Catholics aren’t the only ones who have done so, as well as many Protestant religions. I don’t suffer from being in a ridiculous church most likely founded on ridiculous reason like the Church of England.

            • 911Infidel

              Oh you mean like Martin Luther who posted his 95 theses on the door of Castle Church of Wittenberg? Well I got my own 13 theses on why left the Catholic Church.

              And I wouldn’t call becomming a born-again Christian a “ridiculous reason” for leaving the Catholic Church. I call that discernment. What’s more ridiculous is someone who is too stubborn to open their eyes and awaken from their spiritual slumber.

              • Indiana

                I would say you are more ignorant and delusional than spiritual. Please do not bore me with that “born-again Christian” crap.

                • Jesus says one must be born again. Is His Word crap?

                • Indiana

                  Every word I have heard from people in this thread is.

                • But you replied to 911Infidel about “do not bore me with that “born-again Christian” crap” I am saying that Jesus Himself said one must be born again. Is that crap too?

                • Indiana

                  Tell me something. Are born again Baptized? How many times?

                • Dang. I meant to hit the ‘reply’ button on Indiana’s reply to you. But, the ‘like’ button was in that spot. I proceeded according to where things were supposed to be. That’s pretty much how I drive, too.

                • Sorry, couldn’t reply below. I was sprinkled as a baby. I grew up in the “ridiculous” Anglican church. My parents had me sprinkled- which is fine, because it showed that they were dedicated to raising me in a Christian home. However, once I grew up and left home, I searched for a church home, and found it in a Baptist church 2000 miles away from my home. I met Jesus for the first time in my life, realized my need for Him and trusted Him for my salvation. I saw that I needed to make a public statement of my trust, that my sins have been washed and I have been buried and raised new in Him, which I professed at my Baptism. Full immersion baptism. I have been spiritually baptized by the presence of the Holy Spirit who dwells in me. I am a born again child of God.

                • Indiana

                  I believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins

                • las1

                  Funny there AbiC… I found Jesus, or he found me, in the Anglican church before the era when it became super-duper liberal. I have very fond memories, even of their ritual. I’m quite comfortable there, but not comfortable with the apostates who run the church presently.. it’s about to revert back to bondage and captivity under the Roman Catholic banner by unseparating the separated brethern bringing them back into the Roman system.

                • 12grace

                  May G-d bless you, that’s a beautiful story.

                • It’s not the baptism that forgives sins, it’s trusting in Christ and asking Him for through His sacrifice, He forgives. I believe in Baptism as a personal decision to be baptized by immersion, because that’s the way Jesus was baptized. Being sprinkled as a baby was not a decision made by me to be a follower of Christ. My baptism as an adult was. The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens as He chooses.

                • Indiana

                  I do not really believe that at all.

                • conservativecanadian1

                  Indiana, yet Jesus was fully immersed…as an adult. He wasn’t sprinkled as a baby. And he was sinless before his baptism. It wasn’t meant to wash away his sins.

                  Where does it say in scripture that a sprinkling as a baby washes away sins?

                • las1

                  ABiC.. I’ve been studying this Romanist issue twelve ways from Sunday.. the Roman historical claims, the false dogmas, the seat of Peter, the Papal infallibility, the evolving ongoing dogmas, the sacramental treadmill.

                  But your response to our friend Indiana, when he says he does not really believe that at all, boils down to one simple truth of Christianity: No outward act, no ritual (not even baptism), no following of a law will result in salvation. Salvation by grace through faith is so rampant an idea, so all pervasive a truth through out the New Testament, it’s mind boggling to my hardened and skeptical ears to still hear a “Christian” say they do not believe that.

                • 911Infidel

                  One problem Indiana all of us quoted the Scripture correctly. Scripture correctly quoted is not crap. It is truth. Your catechism is man-made doctrine. It may or may nor align itself with Scripture, but it is not a substitute for the correct exegesis that has been posited here by so many.

                • Indiana

                  An atheist makes the same arguments of the bible.

                • Indiana, have you ever read the Bible? I mean the complete Bible? King James version? I only ask out of genuine concern because you seem to disagree with much of what some of us are trying to tell you- and what we are telling you is completely scriptural.

                • Indiana

                  No I do not read the King James version.

                • Replying up here now, sorry. You said you don’t read the King James Bible. OK, do you read any Bible?

                • Indiana

                  The New American Bible

                • Sorry I just saw that other reply. So you read the New American Bible. The verses in there similarly worded, meaning much the same unless I’m thinking a different Bible. Is it just called the New American Bible or the New Standard American Bible?

                  And I’m a lady. Thank you.

                • Indiana

                  Just The New American Bible. I am trusting int he teachings of my Church, I am sorry. As soon as I can afford it I will fly to the Vatican to see the Pope. I have an old professor that went there for his honeymoon

                • I wish I could talk to you some more Indiana- but it’s 3 in the morning where I am and frankly, I’ve not slept for more than 4 hours most nights this week. I hope and pray the Lord will speak to you through His Word. I will keep you in prayers. Good night.

                • crosshr

                  tru dat, and you are not prevented to look at it too and see why many here think that way and make your own conclusion !

                • white531

                  Then why are you still here?

                • Indiana

                  Trying to educate the willfully ignorant. I see now I cannot help drones.

                  Matthew Chapter 5 Verses 10-12

                  10. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
                  11. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me.
                  12. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.h Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


                • Sara

                  Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born* from above.”
                  Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
                  Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
                  What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
                  Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’
                  New American Standard Bible


                • 911Infidel

                  One becomes born-again when they are adult enough to understand that they are sinners in need of salvation. Once they decide to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, they get baptized as an adult just once.

                • Indiana

                  I will never become a “born-again”. I am now and will always be a Roman Catholic.

                • 911Infidel

                  Too bad. To disobey Christ’s teaching on the subject means eternal damnation for you. Crap is what you called Christ’s word on the born-again requirement to enter heaven. And crap you shall have in the next life….

                • Indiana

                  It will be interesting when I look down on you from heaven as you are in chains and smacked around by satan itself.

                • Sara

                  I believe Indiana is misunderstanding the meaning of “born again”. Here is the same verse from the Bible version he(?) referenced:

                  Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born* from above.”

                  Note the *. At the bottom of the page they explain that the Greek word “anothen” can mean both “again” and “from above”.
                  From (U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops)

                • If you are not born again of the Holy Spirit, your religion is in vain. Your religion will not save you, only Jesus can and He says, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

                • Indiana

                  Or we have a different understanding of the bible.

                • Please read the Bible Indiana. You can not be saved by the Catholic church, just as I can’t be saved by my times I’ve gone to church. There is only one way to heaven. Jesus is the Truth, the Life and the Way. No one comes to the Father but by Him. He says Himself that one must be born again.
                  Romans 3:23 says For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
                  Romans 3:10 tells us that no one is righteous: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one
                  John 3:16 gives us a way to reconcile with God : For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
                  Jesus says you must be born again

                  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
                  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
                  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
                  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
                  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
                  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
                  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
                  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
                  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
                  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
                  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
                  John 3:5-15

                • Indiana

                  I have read my New American Bible sir or madam.

                • Sara

                  Indiana’s Bible (New American) does not use the word “again” in this verse. It, instead, says “from above”. The Greek word “anothen” means both.

                  Funny – this is also what caused Nicodemus’ confusion!

                • madmaxnorth

                  Then you will always be lost Indy.

                • Indiana

                  Your heart is lost to the darkness.

                • madmaxnorth

                  As is your soul…..

                • I’m replying here now to your comment to white just now. So you call Christians drones because we believe in the Bible, yet you have now quoted the same scriptures twice about Blessed are the persecuted. Do you feel persecuted because we are quoting scriptures or are we the persecuted because you call us drones for not succumbing to the traditions of men? Which is it Indiana? I’m a tolerant person- ask anyone here. I’m far from perfect, I’m a work in process. But I am getting mighty tired of being told that because I don’t worship at the foot of the pope, who is a fallen human just like the rest of mankind, I am a fake. I’m tired of trying to show you God’s word on any given subject you bring up, only to be told you’re a catholic, and don’t believe. Which is it then? DO YOU BELIEVE that the Bible is the Word of God or not? And if you do, then why do you disbelieve every bit of scripture we have shown you?
                  If I’m a drone, or stupid or in your eyes evil because I have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God in my heart- fine, I will answer to the Lord someday for it. But unless you’re willing to be civil about any more discussion, I will not answer to you. Call us whatever you want- but you’re about done here.

                • Indiana

                  I am calling you drones because I cannot get through to you.

                • You can’t get through to us because you’re not arguing with scripture. We are. As for myself, I have…

                  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
                  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
                  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
                  Ephesians 6:13-15

                  Sorry, I don’t know the American Bible version.

                • Indiana

                  And you can’t because anyone can type out scripture. The Westboro Baptist Church puts out scripture all the time. The point is how the scripture is interpreted.

                  In a document from the Catholic Bishops about homosexuality, they say:

                  “It would not be wise for persons with a homosexual inclination to seek friendship exclusively among persons with the same inclination. They should seek to form stable friendships among both homosexuals and heterosexuals . . . A homosexual person can have an abiding relationship with another homosexual without genital sexual expression. Indeed the deeper need of any human is for friendship rather than genital expression.”

                  Now we Catholic do understand that if a person with same-sex attraction acts upon their desire with a partner it’s not a true expression of love because it’s not caring for the other person’s soul. Our sexuality makes sense in light of the opposite sex. Adam needed Eve in order to “be fertile and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).

                  But my main point throughout all of this argument is that Being gay is not a mortal sin; acting out on it with full knowledge is. Just like being heterosexual is not a mortal sin, but you can sin mortally by acting out on it in certain ways.

                • NWIGOP

                  If you ask me you are all acting nuts over this. Both Indiana and you guys. Why can’t he have his view and you have yours with out there having to be a scripture battle? Isn’t the point of our country and constitution for people to be able to believe what they want? That is his interpretation of the Bible and what his Church says about homosexuality and you you have your view. Can we get back to what unites us all on the right?…….. putting ideas together to stop Obama and the left!

                • Sara

                  Here is the Bible Indiana is using.


                  Read the verses (and footnotes)which you have referenced throughout this thread and I believe you will understand Indiana’s confusion.

                • Thanks Sara- I appreciate it. Sorry I couldn’t find a place before to comment back, but I understood your points about translation. Thank you.

                  PS- I’ve bookmarked it for future reference.

                • crosshr

                  two scenerios, 1. will be lot of crap in HELL. 2. will be NO CRAP in HEAVEN. born again is a BIBLICAL FOOTING whereby your house can be all framed and finished afterward.

                  Mark 16 : 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,but he that believeth not shall be damned .

                • badbadlibs

                  Good word, crosshr!
                  Peter isn’t the rock, how sad so many are deceived. 🙁

                • ryanomaniac

                  Well, you said it all right there. If you don’t want hear all that born again Christian crap then you’ve pretty made known where your loyalties stand.

                • Sara

                  He doesn’t understand what “born again” means. Read including the footnotes. I think this argument is based on a misunderstanding of terminology.

                  This website refers to the Bible he uses – New American Standard.

              • sjmom

                911; there are born again Catholics of which I am one. When someone asks I tell them I am a born again, Bible believing, Spirit filled Christian who attends the Catholic Church. There’s a lot of us but its the Indianas who usually get the hype.

                Also, I’m sure Indiana doesn’t know but somewhere about the year 2000 Pope John Paul II met with the head of the Lutheran church to say the Age of Protest was over and Luther was right. Of course the Catholic Church did not publicize this.

                Yeah, the Catholic Church has problems but in today’s world most of them do. Me, I stay in the Word because its the undeniable, inerrant Truth.

                • 911Infidel

                  Oh I’ve heard of such a movement. But I could never join. I need to hear the Word preached without any sort of worldly filter. I should post my 13 Reasons Why I left the Catholic Church document as a retort to Indiana and my own stubborn family who continue to stick to their myths and fables as if it were some sort of fact. And only Satan himself would call the words of Christ: crap. But all in all it remains a spiritual truism, one sows, the other waters, the Holy Spirit grows and Christ is the Harvester.

            • The point is Indiana, that while I can agree that homosexuals as with all sinners ought to be treated as we want to be treated- with respect and compassion, there is no one here, or in the article who has shown disrespect and contempt. The point of the article is that NOT showing the fact that they are in sin, and still claiming that Jesus loves them and they’re fine just the way they are (behaving) is more hateful than telling them the truth, that their lifestyle is sinful and if they do not repent and turn away from it, they will doom themselves to be apart from God for eternity.

              • Indiana

                There is a part of me that disagrees with: “that their lifestyle is sinful and if they do not repent and turn away from it, they will doom themselves to be apart from God for eternity”

                • Why?

                • Selective catechism.

                • I guess so. :-/

                • crosshr

                  The flesh go to war with the spirit pretty much all the time, even if you are a born again Jesus fanatic. Although one must have the Spirit first so it leads and reveals pathways that are holy and righteous apart from unGodly carnal shallow selfabsorbed
                  pathways and behaviors as of sweet delicacy lifestyle many tolerate.

                  I am attracted to scriptural study, not much a church going fan.The Bible is simple to understand. The Main focus why I try my best to live my life as a Christian is the to go to HEAVEN, without that, I wont waste a single second of my life going to church and may involve in a cult where I can do whatever I want

              • “The truth hurts” is a phrase that comes to mind but no one never asks why it hurts.

                It hurts because it shows us our vanity and sin…and just how really wrong we as sinners and human beings can be.

            • crosshr

              two wrong don’t make a right, both if not repent and turn their ways will be found in Hell !

              • Indiana

                It is hard for me to find what you are commenting on.

          • 1endtimes2020

            Oh, White, that hurts. Of all the thousands of priests and missionaries that spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, very, very few of them would have used their positions and desire to sacrifice their lives for Christ, in order to harm children. At one time, all of Europe and Great Britain were all Roman Catholics. King Henry the 8th left the Church to start his own, because the Church did not approve of his adultery with many wives. That fact is not in the Bible. England used to be all French speaking also, because it became fashionalble. That’s just an aside, but shows change takes place among nations. Luther should not have left the Church to start his own, but should have continued in a dialogue within the Church Christ began. Christ said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” He said it to Peter because Peter denied Him 3 times. Not because John didn’t. Peter was crucified upside down for his belief and bravery to uphold the teachings of Jesus. The Apostles and those they converted said what is today considered to be the Mass, with the Gospel and Holy Communion. Jesus said “Unless someone eats my flesh and drinks my blood, there will be no life within them”. This means his declaration was meant to be much more than just “do this in’memory’ of me”. Transsubstantiation is the actual body and blood of Christ that the representative of Jesus is given authority to do by the Pope. Jesus said about His Church, “whatsever is bound on earth will be bound in Heaven, and (confession) whatsever is not bound on earth will not be bound in Heaven”.
            Constantine ‘ordered’ the Good News to be taught in all the countries he conquered. He had known of the hundreds of years of Christ’s teachings, and he didn’t start his own Church, but became part of an existing Church.
            As for Baptism, the Church ‘pours’ water on the head of the baby. At 9 years old, preparation for Confirmation is made so a child can fully understand the purpose of the Baptism, along with teachings of Jesus Christ. The child must speak the words after each teaching by responding “I believe”.
            As for homosexuals, an association of doctors researched the issue, for over 35 years, and treated those who wanted to leave the lifestyle. They presented a report, a few years ago, saying there was no ‘gay’ gene. For details visit
            Sometimes I wonder how many homosexuals are heterophobic—as in ‘fear’ of having a relationship with the opposite sex.
            One thing for sure, when a person becomes involved in sex, it can create a bond of love, or a bond of lust. Inside each of us, God created a conscience of being able to discern the difference between right and wrong. Adam and Eve had it, and hid from God (silly things!), and so the same example with Cain and Abel, when Cain killed his brother. A voice from the Father said “Cain! Where is thy brother?” Remember? Homosexuals know what is right and just like those who experiment with drugs and get hooked, so do heterosexuals who experiment with the sensation of sodomy. They know it’s a sin, or at least. that it is not normal, but go ahead with trying it just the same. It’s ‘just sex ‘, and that’s why promiscuity becomes part of living that way. They want ‘love’ with lust and are attracted to others on a physical basis, and not because of their minds.
            We need to recognize that the Founding Fathers were ‘protestants’ who came from a breakaway Church founded by a pervert King, who didn’t mind killing wives to become a widower, and justify his qualifications for a obtaining a new wife, to the Catholic Church still in authority there,in England. Regardless, the Founding Fathers believed in Christianity and the benefits of the Magna Carta to form an American Constitution,
            Columbus discovered America from a Catholic Italy, and the Founding Fathers formulated the U.S. Constitution from a Protestant England.
            “What differnce does it make?”, as Hillary would probably say.
            Partaking of a real Holy Communion makes a difference.
            When push comes to shove, we must all remember believing in Jesus as our Saviour is paramount. But so is confession, which acknowledges our sins, and repentance, which provides resolution to not sin again.
            God knows, for us, it is difficult, but with God all things ar possible because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It took ‘a god’ to be worthy enough to make amends for our sins. Not just any God, but the Son of the Real and Only God. He gave us the Ten Commandments, and Jesus said all should be obeyed if we loved each other as He loves us, and His Church (His Bride) How many people do you know who go to Church on Sunday, the Sabaath, and then go to the Mall? I think they know it’s a sin—it IS one of the 10 commandments, after all and the Father thought it important enough “to rest” from our work, to make it a Command.
            The devil has his hands in doing all he can to destroy human beings, even trying to convince the world God made more than one category of humans…heterosexual and homosexual….oh, but wait….among homosexuals, the devil added more categories…transgender and all the other ugliness we know are marching in a Parade to Hell.
            Now we see the devils hand in ruining a child’s once-in-a-lifetime innocent childhood, free of adult issues, including the anti-human adult issue of homosexual sodomy.
            Hollywood has always tried to indoctrinate the population, and today should be called Follywood, for all the harm they do in giving credibility to the mockery against our Creator.
            Most Proestants don’t realize the Catholic Church became ‘liberal’ at Vatican 2, in the early 1960s. Infiltrated to ‘destroy the Church from within” has been the 200 year goal of Freemasons. I remember well of the controversy that existed among parishioners regarding the homosexuals that wanted to become priests so that they could be celibate and not be tempted by their homosexual ‘tendencies’…a word replaced with ‘orientation’ today. Well, the Church had compassion and allowed it, and they have paid the heavy price for it.
            But it isn’t fair to put aside all the great sacrifices and martyrs of the missionaries, (mostly from France) that spread the Word throughout North America. They have made their mark in names like Detroit, Montreal and so many others.
            The Catholic Church, and Popes warned future Popes not to stray from conservative tradition by becoming liberal, for the effects it would have in creating a ‘slippery slope’. Think the Catholic Church harmed children? How about the secular media that has access to millions of homes, telling everyone being gay is ok, and anyone who doesn’t accept it is not ‘mainstream’ or ‘progressive’ (regressive is more like it)
            Mankind can do a lot of wrong things, but that’s because we do not have the wisdom of God, and we don’t pray enough to the Holy Spirit, who Jesus sent ans named “the Helper”
            So, let’s take advantage of the Helper/Holy Spirit that we can all come together, as we head toward the end times.
            On another day, I will speak of the special role Mary, the Mother of Jesus, has in the end times. You can visit in the meantime.
            Okay, I’ll be away from this site for some time, again. We are family, and the family that prays together, stays together. Please, let’s pray each day for wisdom and for healing of mind, body and soul for each other.

    • Then what do you do with 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10? While many (most?) modern translations focus on homosexual acts, in Greek Paul uses classifications for people–his focus is on identity. He plainly says that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God (along with thieves, swindlers, liars, etc.).

      Let’s be clear that Paul was addressing the church, and not pagan society–he was calling the church to purity. His letter was not addressed to people outside the church community at all. His call to pagan society was not to good works or purification, but to Christ and Christ alone. Indeed, how can pagan society be purified, without first coming to Christ? And what profit are good works, if one does not know Christ? In this important sense, Paul was not a gay basher, and had little in common with many conservative evangelical leaders today.

      At the same time, Scripture is clear–one cannot be a homosexual (even one who refrains from homosexual acts) and enter the kingdom of God. Part of the hope and salvation we offer the world must be changed lives–that someone has become a new creation in Christ, transformed to his image. This does not mean that a person merely stops actively sinning. It means that a person’s heart must be changed.

      People who maintain that homosexual acts are not a sin or that homosexuality (as an identity) is not a sin are not just minimizing sin–they are minimizing salvation, and in the end presenting a weak and ineffectual gospel that will not and cannot save humanity. This gospel is nothing more than a variation of good works and being nice.

      • Indiana

        As a Catholic, I believe this since is is within the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

        In a document from the Catholic Bishops about homosexuality, they say:

        “It would not be wise for persons with a homosexual inclination to seek friendship exclusively among persons with the same inclination. They should seek to form stable friendships among both homosexuals and heterosexuals . . . A homosexual person can have an abiding relationship with another homosexual without genital sexual expression. Indeed the deeper need of any human is for friendship rather than genital expression.”

        CCC 2358

        • Rshill7

          The “Catechism” is fallible as well as flammable. So is the Pope.

          Your Catholicism perish with you.

          You don’t need any version of the Bible or any direct quotes from Jesus? You place Catholic teaching over New Testament teaching? What institution has been more corrupt, extra-biblical, and led by blind guides than the Catholic Church?

          Peter worship won’t help ya’. Heaven will be populated in spite of the Catholic Church, not because of it. Expect to see Cardinals and Popes when you get there.

          “Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” (Matthew 16:23 NIV)

          It says the same thing in that translation you prefer. Once again, with this verse, Jesus was prophetic. He is the only infallible one. Your church is not, and you as a member of it are not, regardless of your “belief”.

          Your belief is not causative.

          • Indiana

            The Catholic Church has survived 2000 years of persecution so I guess I can handle you. Catholicism teaches the Testaments. I would say Protestant and the non-denominational have been more corrupt, extra-biblical, and led by blind guides.

            • Rshill7


              Uh huh…keep repeating that mantra. It’s every bit as effective as your catechism.

              The only thing you have to worry about “handling”, is eternity. For that though, you are following the wrong recipe. You think you’re making Angel Food Cake but you are making something more akin to Liver Pate.

              Your belief is still not causative.

              • Indiana

                Neither is yours

                • Rshill7

                  I have only the truth as set forth by Christ himself, not extra-biblical BS created out of thin, man made, hot air. My belief mirrors Holy scripture. It does not necessitate causation. The catechism does not mirror anything but itself and it’s writers. Writers who thought regular people should not have a copy of the Holy Bible. Maybe that’s because they didn’t want the people to see what liars and blasphemers they were and are.

                  Your belief, in other words, cannot change anything. The Pope’s beliefs can not either. The Pope is no holier or closer to God/Christ than me or my neighbors. We do not need a middleman. Neither do you. You believe you do though. You are wrong.

                  Catholics and Popes fancy that they are the agent of record for Christianity. They are not. Christ alone is. Mary is not, Saints are not, Priests are not, and the Pope is not. We all have equal access, but not you and not Catholics. You think you need the church to buy you a ticket or give you permission.

                  I do not need a translator or a go-between, middleman. If you do, I’m closer to God than you are. Your go-betweens must be closer to God than you are too.

                  Heck man, that’s a lot of folks closer to God than you are.

                • Sara

                  Note here, Indiana uses the “I’m rubber, you’re glue” argument.

            • Rshill7

              It sounds like that 2000 year old church sold you some “Indulgences”, and you brilliantly paid cash.

              Will you get what you paid for, with your soul? Nope.

              Before the printing press, your church’s leaders lied their lips off to people. They still do. You are exhibit Z.

              • Indiana

                I will say to that: the Catholic Church is not the only church to have those “Indulgences”. They just come after us more because we are the world’s largest Church.

                • Rshill7

                  Indulgence: Remission of part or all of the temporal and especially purgatorial punishment that according to Roman Catholicism is due for sins whose eternal punishment has been remitted and whose guilt has been pardoned as through the sacrament of reconciliation. (Merriam-Webster)

                • Indiana

                  Please explain why Merriam-Webster has any importance?

                • Rshill7

                  Because they know how to define words so much better than thou….as do I.

                • Indiana

                  Yes and ironically the same that wants to change the definition of marriage.

                • OK how about Funk and Wagnalls?
                  Indulgence:Something granted as a favor, to gratify one’s own desire.


                • Are you really serious?

                • Indiana

                  Serious of what?

                • Wish Indiana was still around. I am getting so confused. They claim that the RCC is the only church but then they makes statements comparing their church with other churches to ease their mind, I guess. It does not help their argument at all.

          • I think Indiana is doing what so many of all faiths do and that is pick and choose their bible verses and religion to conform to their worldview instead of conforming their worldview to religion.

      • Bucketheadbaptist

        Nowhere in the bible will you find Salvation = Inheritance.

        These two concepts are not the same thing. That is an idea of whimsy brought about by wishful thinking of the church.

        AND… Paul also said that Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.

        So I’m right there with everybody else that will not inherit…. UNLESS… the idea of Inheritance has been taught wrong by the church. Hmmm … like that’s never happened before.


    • Man, the root of sin labels homosexuality, adultery and many other things. If one come to Christ that root needs to be cut. We can’t cut the root and hold on to homosexuality. This isn’t about hate. I have no beef with these folks. But this issue wouldn’t have been addressed in the OT & NT if it wasn’t important.

      • Indiana

        As a Catholic, I believe this since is is within the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Church teaching)

        In a document from the Catholic Bishops about homosexuality, they say:

        “It would not be wise for persons with a homosexual inclination to seek friendship exclusively among persons with the same inclination. They should seek to form stable friendships among both homosexuals and heterosexuals . . . A homosexual person can have an abiding relationship with another homosexual without genital sexual expression. Indeed the deeper need of any human is for friendship rather than genital expression.”

        • 3seven77

          So you are saying that homosexuality is not a sin according to your church? Well then, tell me, where do you draw the line? What *is* a sin? If it’s okay to have sex with the opposite gender and it’s okay to have sex with the same gender, is it also okay to have sex with both a man and a woman at the same time? Is it then okay to have sex with a whole group of people? Is it okay to have sex with children? Is it okay to have sex with animals? With dead bodies?

          What is the “standard” that is used to designate an action to be considered a “sin” if it’s not the standard that is in the Bible?

          God loves his children. That’s why he set standards, so we would know where the boundaries are. God still loves us when we sin, but it doesn’t make our actions any less sin.

          • Indiana

            But homosexuality is not a sin. Being gay is not a sin.

            • ryanomaniac

              Says you, not God. If you would like it your way then start a new religion that fits your mold. Also, any part in the Bible which speaks of homosexuality you need to take a black marker and cross those verses out. If they aren’t worth believing then you shouldn’t have to look at them again.

              • Indiana

                Perhaps you interpret wrong.

                • ryanomaniac

                  Do they teach you in “The Church” to be so arrogant? What does that say? Since you are supposed to be the fruit of their vine I guess I’very answered my own question. You remind me of the Church of Christ. That particular group are as arrogant as you are.

                • Indiana

                  If I am arrogant that is a gift from God. I say that I am strong in my faith. I am not of the Church of Christ I am of the Catholic Church. The original Christian Church founded by the Christ who chose his Apostle Peter to lead the Church where as he was the first Pope.

                • Actually NO. The original Church is the Coptic Church. Catholic Church came about 300 years later.

                • Indiana

                  Actually it is the Catholic Church

                • Indiana

                  I am not sure but you somewhat remind me of the Westboro Baptist Church.

                • JoeMontana16

                  Not being a smart ass, what do you think God was feeling or thinking in the verses provided above? I have to agree with ryanomaniac except for one thing. I think youre an exCatholic. Who is now gay and is doing their best to make it work in their head somehow. You cant figure which one is more important too you, Catholocism or homosexuality, so you bring them together. Since you bringing them into the same pot along with many the others, you feel as though you’ve embarked on some kind of new understanding. The real way God wanted it. A new enlightenment. This makes you proud of yourself and in turn you have become arrogant.

                • Indiana

                  You people are very bad at understanding anything. As I told the other person. I greatly assure you that I am a Catholic. You just don’t like what I have to say. I care about my religion which is why I have served my Church and have defending my Church and faith against people like you who wish to diminish is as if your faith and way of thinking is superior. I will be Joe Montana and lead to the point, I am a Catholic and tomorrow on Sunday I will be going to my Church and i will become my nephews Godfather and I will teach him about the Catholic faith so that he will grow to become a good Catholic. I have been taking part in the Right Scoop for a while because I am a Conservative Republican. I aspire to get people elected who believe in low taxes, smart regulation, smaller government and the Constitution. I have worked on the political campaigns or Joel Phelps for Indiana’s 1st Congressional District, Richard Mourdock’s campaign for the United States Senate, gave money to Mitt Romney’s campaign, and supported Mike Pence for Indiana Governor as well as multiple Republicans for state office in Indiana. So don’t you dare question my credentials as a person of faith or my reason for being here.
                  This is something from a Catholic youth ministry I was a part of a few years ago.

                • You said, “I will teach him about the Catholic faith so that he will grow to become a good Catholic” How about teaching him to be a good Christian who follows Christ’s Word? That would be the best teaching gift you could possibly give.

                • And in a nutshell you just summarized one of my gripes with the single most organized religion on the planet.

                • Indiana

                  No I will teach him about the Catholic faith so that he will grow to become a good Catholic, Basically it is the same thing.

                • Not if he comes away as confused over scripture as you seem to be.

                • Indiana

                  I am not confused over scripture you jest have an interpretation of scripture that you believe to be the true meaning.

            • Not according to Pope John Paul.

              • Indiana

                Than you haven’t read his leader to the Clergy

        • Your selective interpretation is creating your confusion here. In loving the sinner, and not the sin, the Catholic Church is simply following the teachings of Jesus.

          But the Catholic Church has never claimed acts of homosexuality are not a sin. Your attempts to muddy these waters is not working. And you need to tone down the antagonism, while you’re at it.

          Same goes for you folks making derogatory remarks about the Catholic Church. This isn’t The Reformation, it’s 2013, the Country is in trouble, and internecine religious warfare is something best saved for after we Restore the Constitution.

          • Indiana

            I never said that homosexual acts are not sin but I was stating for the sad few that homosexuality itself, a person being gay, isn’t a sin.

            • Sure. Not much utility to the argument, though. No one is interested in that particular quibble, I’m sure.

              • Indiana


                • He is wrong about what?

                  You are trying to parse a grain of sand. A person is homosexual because they practice homosexuality therefore they are wrong and sinful. Pure and simple. You have one foot nailed to the floor because you wallow in moral relativism and nonsense.

                  The sheer fact that you use the PC term ‘gay’ to describe homosexuality tells me you lack courage of every kind. The irony of it all is that there is nothing ‘gay’ about the gay lifestyle. It results in high drug addiction, alcohol addiction, suicide, promiscuity, STD’s and a homosexual has the average life expectancy of a 42 year old.

                  You kindness is a facade to hide your cruelty. Shame on you.

                • Indiana

                  Wow you are truly ignorant.

                • Yes, Laurel is ignorant because she uses facts to back up her comments…. so that would make you what?

                • Indiana

                  I cannot find the comment she made. Tell it to me.

                • Laurel’s comment is right above this one.

                • Indiana

                  It’s not taking me to it.

                • I think you have proven who is ignorant on this thread.

          • *blush* Sorry K-Bob

            • Whoops! Maybe a little over-reach on my part. I only saw a couple of major dings. I just wanted to avoid an “Orange versus Green” type flame war.

              • las1

                Boy… aren’t you guys happy I didn’t enter into this little confab… except me giving ABiC a little low down on the Council of Nicaea. I only put my toe in.

                But I’m enjoying it.. and particularly am heartened that you K-Bob jumped in as well. But you can’t participate then jump out again and scold the others for internecine religious warfare.

                But being that as it may… I’ll just sit back with my popcorn and enjoy.. : )

                Oh and p.s. Flip Wilson happening now… too funny brings back memories.

                • I wasn’t exactly participatin’. I was applying a tourniquet to keep Indiana from bleedin’ out.

                • las1

                  Too late. Get out your mop.

            • Rshill7

              Sorry? For what? The truth? For trying to help someone see the error of their ways? The error of their church’s ways? For trying to snatch someone from the eternal abyss?

              No. Nothing to be sorry about.


        • badbadlibs

          It’s very heart breaking that your answers are “as a catholic”, how about as a Christian as defined by God Himself, rather then an institution?
          Btw, If you would so kindly read the following carefully, you will find that the “rock” isn’t a person, it’s a revelation of who Jesus is:

          Matthew 16:13-18

          New King James Version (NKJV)

          Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

          13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

          14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

          15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

          16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

          17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

          • Indiana

            I do not subscribe to the King James versions. Sorry I am a Catholic. How did Christ define himself as a Christian?

            • badbadlibs

              What you believe is up to you, and I respect your right to do so. But where it might lead someone else astray, for that reason I will speak up according to God’s truths.

              • Indiana

                Are you attempting to say that you version give more truth than my version? I highly doubt that.

                • Rshill7

                  That Christ’s version is the truth and your version is not even a truth.

                • Indiana

                  You don’t know what truth is if Jesus were in front of you and told you that what I am telling you is truth.

                • Rshill7

                  He is in front of me. His book says Holy Bible on the front of it.

                  It does not say “catechism”, Priest, or Pope on it, or in it.

                • Rshill7

                  Correction, it does say Priest a few times in it. Nothing about Catholic Priests though.

                  Jewish Priests, like Caiaphas, and Aaron, the first High Priest 🙂

            • Bucketheadbaptist

              and the New American Bible version of 1st Corinthians 10:4

              “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.”

            • Sara

              New American Standard version

              When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
              They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
              He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
              Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
              Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
              k And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

              The rock isn’t Peter himself, the rock is what Peter said in reply to Jesus’ question.

              There appears to be no difference between the King James and the New American.

          • Bucketheadbaptist

            FYI…. This conversation took place in Caesarea Phillipi, at the base of Mount Hermon, in a place called “Pan’s Grotto” in sight of a cave entrance known to the locals as “The Gates of Hell”.

            Why is this significant?

            Welll… Mt. Hermon is recorded to be the place that the Fallen Angels of Genesis 6… Fell.

            The “Gates of Hell” is the entryway to the place where they were sent to by God… until that day when they shall be loosed upon the Earth as recorded in the book of Revelation.

            The testimony of Peter about the identity of who Jesus was… is made at the entryway as a declaration to the Angels entombed there.

            And for our Catholic brothers and sisters… there is only one Rock, and its not Peter.

            The Rock at Horeb that Moses struck and brought forth the water of Salvation, is the same Rock that was on the Cross at Calvary and was pierced for our transgressions… and issued forth water and blood.

            Just as the bride of the first Adam issued from his side, the bride of the Last Adam was born from HIS side.

            The Rock at Meribah that Moses was TOLD to Speak to so that it would bring forth water… same Rock… but Moses struck it instead, and lost his right to enter the Promised land, because he gave false testimony about God (something we should all be wary of).

            Moses then gave testimony to the people of who THE Rock is… Deuteronomy 32 is the whole speech on who THE Rock is.

            Paul also testifies to the identity of THE Rock: “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” — 1 Corinthians 10:4

            • crosshr

              Well simplified explanation of the rock and the Rock, what they were and are for.
              Amen !

            • Sara

              O.k. – I just got chills! I had never realized that before, but when we consider the fact that EVERYTHING in the O.T. points to Christ, it makes perfect sense! I will definitely be sharing this info with my Bible study group.

              • Bucketheadbaptist

                Thank you for the kind words sister Sara…

                Some of those imagery “types” I learned from Yacov Rambsel, a Messianic believer who has since passed away. God calls these “types” … “similitudes” (see Hosea 12:10)

                Please have a care though if discussing the subject of the Fallen Angels of Genesis 6.

                Most denominational churches do not recognize that interpretation as the true one… but have adopted another interpretation called “The Sethite View”. Which is unfortunate, because Hollywood and Pop Culture has no problem portraying the Angel View in movies and television, video games… AND, it was the ONLY interpretation of that passage during the time that Jesus and his disciples were in Caesarea Phillipi.

                There is a reason that the churches do this… but I do not think you would believe me.

                Let me just warn you though… If you discuss the subject very much, you will most likely be invited to leave.

                Depending on how “legalistic” your particular church may be… the sooner you will be asked to leave.

                That being said… like Abraham’s near sacrifice of Isaac, EVERYBODY understands that that was a prototype of Christ… but not many teach how that model didn’t stop with the sacrifice of the Ram, but actually kept going for a few more chapters (I’ve only heard two men teach it that way, one was Dr. David Jeremiah, and the other one is below.)

                If you would like to learn more about the bible and how God uses the types and models to not only authenticate his message, but acts as a guardian against false teachings that try to creep in, I would share a beautiful short bible study on the book of Ruth with you:


                It changed my life.

                If you’d like to learn more about that OTHER subject… even after my warnings to you… that website is also an excellent place to start your search.

                Thank you again for blessing me with your kind appreciation.


                The Buckethead Baptist

                • Sara

                  I attend Bible Study Fellowship International – we are currently studying Genesis. They are open to both views, though they seem to encourage the fallen angel view. I found it kind of confusing, as the New Testament tells us angels don’t have physical bodies, but then again, if the evil one can take on the form of a serpent…

                • Bucketheadbaptist

                  Ms. Sara… I hope you’ve been challenged and have done some further research on the subject.

                  The subject of Genesis 6 is certainly one of great intrigue. But I’d be the first to say that it in NO way effects the power of the fulfilled Gospel.

                  HOWEVER… it does help to flesh things out a bit.

                  Please allow me to submit these resources for you to search out and continue your education:

                  Chuck Missler &

                  Canary Cry Radio

                  P.I.D. Radio

         (View from the Bunker — a podcast by Derek & Sharon Gilbert)…

                  You are invited to join the folks at PID Radio Cafe on Facebook… Hope to see you there.

        • Sara

          If an individual with homosexual inclinations never acted on those inclinations, would he still be called a homosexual?

          • Indiana


            • Sara

              How would you know he was homosexual if he never acted like one?

    • badbadlibs

      Paul said that even the effeminate were hell bound. You might want to consider what God has to say verses your own opinion.

      • Indiana

        It is what I believe based on my faith.

        • badbadlibs

          Then you are your own god. How sad.

          • Indiana

            Can you not read? I subscribe to the New American Bible.

            • Rshill7

              When does your subscription expire?

              • Indiana


                • Rshill7

                  Oh goody. You’ll be able to put it on your nightstand…made of sulfur and brimstone.

                  That’s something to look forward too.

                • Indiana

                  Well of all this talk you are playing God yourself you heathen

                • Rshill7

                  Am I?

                  Notice I said, Am I(?) rather than I am.

                • Deep.

                • Rshill has a way of arguing, hence his bear avatar- but he LOVES the Lord. He is no heathen.

                • Indiana

                  I did so to mock him.

                • Rshill7

                  Thanks sister.

                  Oooh, I see an exposed jugular. C-Ya! 🙂

          • Indiana

            Funny considering you act as if you are God.

            • 911Infidel

              Any believer that has been blessed by the Spirit can properly interpret Scripture no matter what version. “Study to show yourself approved. A workman that need not be ashamed rightly diving (interpreting) the Word of Truth.” (2 Tim 2:15)

              There are many of those people here. Sadly, you are not one of them.

              • Indiana

                Who are you to be the judge of me? Are you God? If we are to be judges of one another than I will say that in thinking that you have found truth you have ccorrupted yourself.

                • 911Infidel

                  Well that’s because from a spiritual standpoint you’re blind. I went through the same thing until I met Jesus Christ and accepted him as my personal savior. And then He sent His Holy Spirit to give me the wisdom and discernment of His Holy Word that is necessary to confront error such as yours. I already quoted from I Cor once. I’ll do it once more: “Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!” I Cor 6:3. Now if you have any intellect at all, go look up the passages that people keep quoting from in your own version of the Bible and see if they be true or not. You say you read it? I’d posit that you probably just read it on Easter and Christmas since that is what Catholics that I grew up with always did and still do.
                  We on the other hand in here, follow a different precept when it comes to Bible Study: “Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing (the word means to correctly discern and interpret) the word of truth.” 2 Tim 2:15. No one who has not the Spirit of God can ever rightly discern it. Reading is not necessarily understanding. Without the Holy Spirit given after one accepts Christ – as he said to do – will only a allow a person to achieve an eisegesis rather than a proper exegesis 99 times out of a 100.Get with the program kid…before its too late.

                • Indiana

                  1) You are so blind you attempt to use your false belief that you have he wisdom and discernment to confront error. If that was true than why do you continue to error?
                  2) You are obviously not going to convert me to your way of thinking and I am not going to convert you to my faith. Can we just get back to politics and all yell at the top of out lungs at Karl Rove’s attempt to attack the TEA Party.

                • 911Infidel

                  “You are so blind you attempt to use your false belief that you have he wisdom and discernment to confront error. If that was true than why do you continue to error?”

                  Now you’re projecting. It is you that is in error kid.

                  You are obviously not going to convert me to your way of thinking and I am not going to convert you to my faith. Can we just get back to politics and all yell at the top of out lungs at Karl Rove’s attempt to attack the TEA Party.

                  Faith is the substance of things hoped for of things yet unseen. It is not a religion. And you are the one who diverted this thread from its original purpose.

                  But I’m more than happy to debate you.

                • Indiana

                  You guys did. My simple comment was: As a Catholic I do not believe that being homosexual is a sin. I think homosexual acts are sinful as are heterosexual acts outside of marriage.
                  You guys took it to far and attempted to convert me to your thinking.

                • 911Infidel

                  Nope we attempted to correct your incorrect assumptions with Scripture and you got panties in a wad over it. You should’ve just said your peace and moved on.

                • Indiana

                  Nope, I stand and fight. I don’t retreat, I RELOAD! You are incorrect sir in your INTERPRETATIONS of the scripture and assumptions of me. You are the ones getting all crazy because I am someone who sees your interpretation as being wrong.

                • 911Infidel

                  Wrong again. Especially since you’ve lost the arguement sometime yesterday. Only you haven’t figured it out yet. And my interpretation is spot on. Try reading the other comments. So is theirs. You are lost. Lost like a little kid in the woods.

                • Indiana

                  Wrong, you loons are lost like the fools that voted for Barack Obama last November.

                • 911Infidel

                  Ok you’re done. ABC?

                • Indiana

                  You are not my God, I do not do as YOU say.

                • 911Infidel

                  Have a nice day Indiana. Enjoy your ban.

                • The only reason I’ve allowed Indiana to stay for this long is because I am still willing if y’all are to show him the Word of God and the errors of the teaching he’s received. If he gives any more projection though- he/she is going to be gone. I am getting tired of that.

                • 911Infidel

                  I kind of figured something like that. As I told Scoop earlier If there is one true Christian left in the world today her name is probably ABC.

                • Aw, now that made me cry right now brother. Thank you so much for that. I look forward to meeting all my scoop brothers and sisters some day. Thank you for your witness as well. 🙂

                • 911Infidel

                  You’re a peach as they used to say way back when.

                • Indi’s done here. I wished them well for us. 911Infidel, couldn’t comment below- but you’re a sweetheart. thank you brother. You’re an excellent teacher and I’m grateful God is using you.

                • 911Infidel

                  Thank you. I enjoy your rational argumentation. And your attitude: always Christian all the time. It speaks volumes of who you are as a person.

                • We were not trying to convert you, we were showing Scriptural truth that what you are saying concerning homosexuality is in error.
                  If you are a Christian first then how is it we are trying to convert?

                • Indiana

                  What you call truth is just your own interpretation of the bible. You are trying to covert my beliefs which are from what Catholicism teaches on homosexuality based on scripture.

                • Sorry Indi. I’ve tried. 911Infidel, Rshill, sjmom, badbad, Laurel and many others have tried- and you may not see it, but we do care about you. We pray you well, pray you will come to trust in the Scriptures as much if not more than you do in your church. Hopefully we can all have an interesting conversation someday in heaven- but for now, you’re done. You’re insulting and acting trollish. Good bye.

      • Bucketheadbaptist

        I’d like the proof text verse for this claim of being “hell bound” please.


        • badbadlibs

          “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
          1Corth 6:9

          I’m aware that the reference to the effeminate in this passage may be pertaining to male prostitutes, but they were men who acted like women, hence the word “effeminate” was chosen.

          • Bucketheadbaptist

            ” the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God ”

            I repeat… where in that statement does it say homosexuals or “effeminate” are going to Hell?

            It says they cannot inherit.

            It does NOT say… “Go directly to hell, do not pass go. Do not collect $200.”

            Nowhere in the bible is Inheritance equal to Salvation.

            • badbadlibs

              The Gospel of the Kingdom is the Gospel of Salvation. If you believe that the unrepentant, those who have not obeyed the Gospel, those who directly disobey God’s Holy Living are going to “inherit” anything but hell, then you are mistaken.
              Stay mistaken if you wish, but I pray others understand.

              • Bucketheadbaptist

                Since Flesh also cannot inherit… then you and I have a big problem too then.

                I’m only pointing out what the text SAYS. You are making inferences without scriptural support… because you “FEEL” like you know what you are talking about.

                You have no textual support for your opinion.

                • badbadlibs

                  And I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. There is text for that too.
                  Have a good day.

                • Bucketheadbaptist

                  Hey, I’m not the False teacher here. If you want to show yourself worthy and approved… Get your scripture straight. Don’t give False Testimony of the Word of God.

            • badbadlibs

              The Gospel of the Kingdom is the Gospel of Salvation. If you believe that the unrepentant, those who have not obeyed the Gospel, those who directly disobey God’s Holy Living are going to “inherit” anything but hell, then you are mistaken.
              Stay mistaken if you wish, but I pray others understand.

    • ManfredtheWonderDog

      As a Christian, I believe that all people are sinners. Christ saves some, we still sin but are enabled to NOT do so more and more. The righteousness of Christ that is credited to us is what makes us acceptable to God. Not until final redemption at the end of this age will any of us be without sin.

      So – since all are sinners, homosexuals are sinners.

      Now the Bible says any and all sin is worthy of death (this being the second death – cast into Hell forever), and yet sexual sin is against one’s own body and is worse in a way the Bible makes no more clear than that.

      As this fine article points out, homosex is sin and those who do it and fantasize about it are in sin. Jesus made clear – lust entertained in one’s mind is just as sinful as the physical act. This is true for sexual sin, anger, envy, gossip, idolatry – and more. Sin is more hideous than most of us realize. And every saint of the living God is steeped in it and has reason to cry out for repentance and walk humbly before man and God. Christ alone is our refuge, helper, and savior.

    • amona demona

      Well then you are wrong. Sin, in both anciet Greek and Hebrew, is an archery term. It’s the distance between your mark (where your arrow hits) and the bullseye (a perfect shot)
      You are the mark….an imperfect shot. The Bullseye is God,….the perfect shot
      Your Sin is the distance between you and God.
      When your Sin is washed away , its the distance between you and God that is removed. It’s not your past actions that are removed This means Sin is a state of being that allows you to do things that are imperfect and harmful , it’s not the imperfect /harmful things themselves
      In Christianity , your Sin is washed away by EMBRACING Christ’s pure kind of love, the kind so pure it can not involve sexual desires or personal wants. ( It can not involve greed, it can not involve pride ….these things live outside of perfect love.)
      The PURE kind of Love is what changes you, perfects you and brings you closer to God
      The sexual acts themselves are not the Sin, the individual person themselves are not the “Sin” , they are just a diplay of what results from Sin. It’s the imperfect state of being , which we can move in and out of that is the Sin.
      This is why we say “Sin is all the same” and that we can be born into Sin . Even as children we have a certain amount Sin, not because we are guilty or cuplable for any act or bad thought. But because we have yet to learn and embrace that perfect kind of love of Christ is the only way to perfect our being and hand us salvation.

      • Indiana

        You are wrong.

        • Back it up and show how amona demona is wrong. Don’t just say “you are wrong” that’s what trolls do.

          • Indiana

            I don’t even remember what was said. Do you know how many attacks I have had to respond to? What happened to you AmericanborninCanada? We used to be cool.

    • TrollStomperBoots

      I wonder how religious zealots would feel about an organization, The Gay Club, headed by gays for gays,that regularly covered up and condoned the molestation of children?
      All the way up to their leader who did it for pedophiles in his chapter before being promoted???

      And what if these gays had a history of attacking and killing people who didn’t subscribe to their views in the past?
      What if these gays chose a former Hitler Youth member as their current leader?

      Would y’all be willing to just turn a blind eye and silently condone all that?
      Leave the Gay Club alone?

      Not freaking likely.
      Hypocrisy makes me ill.
      Too much of it here and in the Catholic church for the sentient and moral among us.

    • I don’t know how as Catholic you could possibly even remotely come to that conclusion.

      • Indiana

        What that being homosexual isn’t sinful?

    • I have that viewpoint also. I believe that homosexuality does have a genetic predisposition. But I believe all of us have predisposition toward sin, whether stealing, promiscuous, lying, criminal behavior, etc. I believe in nature over nurture as I’ve known a child from a good family become a monster who killed his family for insurance and have seen cases where someone had horrible parent(s), but turn out to do good. How you’re born, however, doesn’t give anyone the right to commit disobey God’s laws. They are supposed to turn to God and resist acting out on their temptations.

      Churches (and synagogues too) used to teach to love the sinner, but hate the sin. Now I think some are just ignoring the sin. I know a lesbian couple who attends church regularly. I want to ask if their church ever teaches the letters of Paul or the story of Lot and of Sodom and Gomorrah. Or do they just skip over those inconvenient parts?

  • Ray

    They absolutely are leading them to hell by example. God WILL not be mocked. He decides what he wants, we will not rewrite his word to fit our lives, well we can but we will NOT get away with it.

  • Excellent article Scoop. Thank you. I agree completely. There are a lot of things that could be said to confirm what Ms. Pilkington talked about here, but she laid out the case perfectly. These christians who preach love and tolerance, yet leave out sin and the cross are there is no other word for it. They have denied the core doctrine of what Christ has done for all- because if one doesn’t believe their behaviors or actions are sinful, they don’t believe they have anything to have forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice. Those who propagate the omission do hate the lost.

    I found this quote from the pastor most important, as I hear the same thing so much anymore in many denominations: “In the sermon, Chalke spoke of the Christian church being “inclusive” to those who feel marginalized and excluded.”

    Of course if a church is teaching straight from the Bible, people’s consciences are going to be pricked or convicted that certain behaviors and actions are sinful. NO ONE likes to hear that they’re being sinful, it doesn’t matter whether it’s lying, cheating, sleeping around or whatever… if a message from the Bible talks about sin, it is going to offend someone. Church was never intended to make people feel good. The church was intended to bring others into fellowship with each other to worship and honor the Lord, and to learn and meditate on His Word and commands to us. Some have taken it to the extreme of all fire and brimstone, but so many fail to see that all love and no judgement is just as dangerous and hateful. If you knew someone was driving on a road that the bridge was out, and they were about to go over a thousand foot fall to their deaths, you’d warn them.

    Sorry. Sermon done. Thanks Scoop. I hope this article makes some folks think and understand.

    • HarrietHT2

      I would disagree here — most respectfully — as to terminology, ABC. An apostate is one who has abandoned the truth after once having believed it. A heretic is one who actively teaches a false gospel, regardless of past belief. A heretic intentionally leads sinners astray and tries also to create doubt in the hearts of believers by proclaiming “another” gospel. I think the church is filled to the brim with both heretics and apostates, but perhaps I quibble.

      My opinion on the issue at hand: a good preacher makes the comfortable uncomfortable and the uncomfortable comfortable. That is to say, if you’re comfortable in your sin, you need to be given the truth of hell and damnation. If you’re fearful and conscience smitten, the gospel assures you of Christ’s love and forgiveness. This is why our polluted and degenerate culture is so destructive to the soul: it promotes a sense of well-being to a soul on the way to hell.

      • Well said Harriet. Thank you.

      • Once again a great big Bravo!

      • white531

        “comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable.”

        I liked that, Harriet.

  • 911Infidel

    God destroyed the cities of the plains for the sin of the Canaanites. Over and over again the OT and the New warn against such behavior. Christ Himself warned that even thinking of sin in one’s heart carries equal guilt as one who carries out that thought. Beware of anyone calling themselves Christian who put culture above what God has forbidden.

  • sDee

    These churches are not Christianity – they are islam.

    Wanna screw a goat? Come on in. We’ve a fatwah for that.

    • notsofastthere

      Too funny! It’s taken centuries to develope language, math, science, hygene, which moved us from an animal state to civilized state. Now we have a minister tell us it’s OK to be an animal and go screw another guy or a goat? You’re in love and what does it matter anyway.

      • crosshr

        zcuse me, I need a go a shower ! heh !

        now there’s a good use for a drone on such behavior !

    • Sober_Thinking

      Lol… you have a way with words.

      But you’re right… a lenient or watered down church does no one any good.

  • Optimus_Maximus

    God Bless Lesley Pilkington, and all Christians who strive to adhere to the Word, who acknowledge the Word as the path to a better life, becoming a better person, and the only way to get to heaven.

    Adherence to the Word is not easy, and we all fall short. It is the constant striving to live up to Christ’s example, having the humility to ask forgiveness for our sins, and getting up to strive again that identify all true Christians.

    Steve Chalke is simply the latest in a long line of liberals who believe the Word is a “living document” and can be interpreted by each individual in a way to justify sin. They claim they are doing it out of “love” for their fellow man, but, as the article states, are leading their clients straight to Hell.

    These are the same sorts of people who attempt to convince us the constitution is a “living document” and can be interpreted to mean 180 degrees from the US founder’s intentions. They also try to convince us that “concern for the childrent, the indigent, etc. requires us to bankrupt the country, never acknowledging their actions, well intentioned as they may be, destroy man’s instinctive desire to stand on his own two feet and provide value to his fellow citizens in order to support himself and his family.

    Being coerced by the state to pay taxes to help the poor and hungry will earn you no bounty in heaven. You must do this voluntarily of your own free will to abide by Christian principles.

    There are some things that are forever black and white, with no gray shadings, however badly many wish to deny it.

    • Sober_Thinking

      Good post.

      • white531

        Yes, it was.

  • 57thunderbird

    False prophets such as those like Steve Chalke are another sign of the end of days.I hear hoof beats.

  • HarrietHT2

    Short answer: Yes.

    • 57thunderbird

      I agree.

  • As a Christian, our only source of authority is the Bible. Therefore, we should look at what the Bible says on homosexuality. The Bible is perfectly clear that homosexuality is a sin and that the sexually immoral have no place in the kingdom of God. Lying to people and telling unbelievers that homosexuality is not a sin is the worst thing any one can do. If you truly love people and want them to be saved, you will share the full and complete gospel with them because the word of God is the power unto salvation. Is someone going to see a doctor if they do not know that they are sick? Why would someone ask for forgiveness if they do not know that they are a sinner?

    Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
    Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
    Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
    Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
    Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    If you claim to be a Christian and you claim that homosexuality is not a sin, then I have one question for you. Where do you get your authority from to make such a claim? The Bible is clear on this and and a Christian you are supposed to willingly submit to the authority of scripture.

    • 57thunderbird

      Amen!Well written.Nuff said.

    • Sober_Thinking

      Totally spot on. Excllent verses. 🙂

    • Bucketheadbaptist

      These verses refer to a culture that rejects God in his role as Creator. You’ve misunderstood the point, the verses announce what will happen to a society that rejects Creator God, namely, as a judgement, that society is given over to homosexuality. Please back up a few verses and read the whole thing in context.

      • I absolutely agree that homosexuality is a judgment on a nation. It not not evidence that judgment is coming, it is evidence that judgment it already here. There is no doubt that God is judging our nation right now. I am not entirely understanding your point though. Wouldn’t homosexuality being a sign of God’s judgment be all the more evidence that it is wrong? Homosexuality is referred to as a degrading passion, unnatural, an indecent act, and not proper. It says those who commit such acts receive the due penalty of their error. In the OT, homosexuality was punishable by death because it is so devastating to the family and society as a whole.

        I challenge you to find any scripture that supports your view that homosexuality is not a sin. If you claim to be a Christian, the Bible should be your source of authority.

        • HarrietHT2

          “It is evidence that judgment is already here.” Absolutely correct; and judgment always brings with it an invitation to repent, it is never merely punitive, for God’s heart is love and He invites all to repent and turn from their wicked ways, wicked ways being the evidence of unbelief, the evidence of being a slave to sin.

        • Bucketheadbaptist

          “it is evidence that judgment it [sic] already here”

          On that point we agree… (though I would point to the decision to allow “No Fault” divorces would be more egregious to society’s ills)

          On the following point… not so much, but please allow me to explain before you cast me into the pits of heresy:

          “In the OT, homosexuality was punishable by death because it was so devastating to the family and to society as a whole.”

          In general, I would agree with your opinion here… BUT… the specific reason of why God forbade it to the Hebrews (remember, these laws were given to the Hebrews) is a little more complex, and for a much more important purpose, namely, the protection of the Messianic lineage.

          David, I’d ask for just a brief moment for you to consider the larger picture of the bible… do not look at one specific tree… but back out and look at the forest for a minute.

          These laws concerning sexual activities are consistent with the dietary laws, and the laws governing sickness, disease, and even ordinances of digging holes for your personal waste sanitation.

          Let me show you the dietary laws in a way that I think you’ll understand them far better.

          Without getting into the details of the laws (you can do that on your own)… if you look at the way clean and unclean animals are broken down, it goes like this:

          Herbivores: clean
          Carnivores: unclean
          Omnivores: unclean

          Why? Because Carnivores and Omnivores feed off of blood and the meat of other animals and their toxins within them. Given enough time, the toxins they consume, build up to dangerous levels for humans to consume them.

          Have you ever heard of “Mad Cow” disease? Do you remember what caused it? Some feed company decided on a new method of disposing of the by-products of Sheep slaughtering… by using sheep brains to be a supplement in the cattle feed they sold.

          Cattle which are not designed to digest meat, built up toxic levels of a substance their bodies could not pass… and in turn passed that on to the unfortunate people who ate that meat.

          There’s a scene in the movie “The Book of Eli” that also demonstrates this.

          The laws and ordinances of God into personal sanitation and diet… and sex, were designed to protect the Messianic blood line from blood diseases. After the coming of the Christ, the lifting of the ordinances on certain unclean foods (Peter and the sheet with Memphis BBQ on it) make a little more sense.

          Now… don’t hear what I did not write.

          The ordinances of approved and non-approved sexual activities given to the Hebrews… are FULL of insights to the identity of the Messiah to those who dare chase them down. Some of the laws in Leviticus also provide some mysterious commentary on other verses in the bible… but that’s a rabbit trail for another day.

          But while I have you taking a look at the Forest… I want to point out that there is something else that lives in this forest… something that is a threat to the Messianic line… who’s origins are found in Genesis chapter 3. The God of the Bible declares a Universal War against the Agent who had just killed his children. God declares that the battle lines will be drawn between “the seed of the woman” vs. “your (his) seed”.

          This war rages throughout the rest of the bible… you see battles and skirmishes take place where the God of the Hebrews uses everything from a Global flood… to a boy with a sling to take on… and take out… the “other seed”.

          Why? Because that “other seed” constantly sought to eliminate or corrupt the Messianic blood line…. to prevent his own destruction. His actions against the Hebrews were always based on two attack fronts… Either kill them all, or infiltrate them. Until God gave him what he wanted… and he infiltrated the Royal House of David through Solomon’s conjugal visit with an Ammonitess.

          Fortunately for us… Even though the Messiah is called “Son of David”… he’s never called “Son of Solomon”… is he?

          For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

          I never said Homosexuality was not a sin. You decided that that was my position based on my admonition of you for not using the Romans 1 passage in its full context.

          Have you read about what God did to Moses and Aaron when Moses struck the Rock at Meribah… instead of Speaking to it like God instructed him to? God told him that he had given false testimony OF GOD… to the people. God told him that he did not Sanctify God to the People. For this, Moses was not allowed to go into the Promised Land… and Aaron took a dirt nap.

          We spend an inordinate amount of time against the sin of Homosexuality. Personally, I believe its a distraction to get us to focus on the minutiae of the Law… instead of focusing on the Lawgiver.

          What has it achieved? Where is the fruit?

          Why does this continue?

          Here’s why…

          We give false testimony to the rest of the world about these passages:

          Genesis 19 (the destruction of Sodom was not because of Homosexuality)

          Romans 1 (the focus of the passage is on those who reject God as Creator, not Homosexuality)

          1 Corinthians 6 (we tell Homosexuals that they cannot be saved or go to heaven… but the passage doesn’t say this… it says they cannot “inherit”… Inheritance and Salvation are NOT the same thing. Paul also said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, but somehow those who Prosecute the Homosexuals, never seem to look at the fine print. The Prodigal son lost his inheritance… he never lost his sonship).

          Mr. Westergaard, I believe I’ve been absolutely faithful to the authority of the scripture here. Now whether you think I am a Christian or not… that is up to you, or perhaps more importantly… God.

          I’ve served in ministry to the Homosexual community for several years… including Homosexual PREVENTION ministry also known as The Cub Scouts of America.

          I do not want to see them come to ruin. I want them to be saved just as you do… at least I hope you do.

          But this battle is not about what is going on inside someone’s pants… It’s about what’s going on in their hearts.

          Instead of serving on the side of the Prosecuting Attorney, where the Accuser of the Brethern dwells, I’d ask you to consider joining the Defense Counsel, where the Advocate to the Father dwells.


          The Buckethead Baptist

          • There are a lot of theories out there regarding why the differences between clean and unclean and why God demands them in doing some things verses another. However, I think you have an interesting theory but there seems to be a bit of a lack of evidence for it. It would seem that with Tamara, Rahab the prostitute, and a Moabite being in the lineage of Jesus that God was not overtly concerned about protecting the lineage of the Messiah. I think that He had that quite easily under control since Gen. 3:15.

            One reason why all the needed laws was the unique relationship of having God in their midst. The concern over homosexuality has just as much to do with the abomination being against the image of God. As well, they were to be the unique people of God that is in opposition to the practices of their neighbors.

            • Bucketheadbaptist

              Thanks for the response Puritan.

              And you brought up the very examples I would use to explain,

              It’s not a theory.

              It’s the way the book reads. Most churches just don’t read it that way. They focus on bad and good, morality and immorality. They don’t pay attention to the details about the Messianic line.

              Tamar — The “Harlot by the side of the Road”… Why were her 1st two husbands killed by God? Well… the standard answer is that they did evil in the site of the Lord… but if you back up a few verses, you’ll discover they were half Canaanite on their Mother’s side. Canaanites were not allowed to be in the Messianic Lineage.

              So Tamar seduces Judah… and bares twins.

              The first born is Pharez. He shows up in a few of the genealogies … but nothing really important is said about him… until the book of Ruth.

              Pharez was, shall we say an “illegitimate child”… the KJV uses a coarser term in Deuteronomy 23:2. It says a “b**tard cannot enter the congregation of the Lord for 10 Generations” — (loosely quoted).

              If you look at the very next verse, it says an Ammonite and a Moabite cannot enter for 10 Generations either. There’s some really odd language in that verse, which I’m researching… but for the purposes of discussion with you… Let’s just focus on the Moabite portion.

              You know who Moab is right? The offspring of the incestuous pairing of Lot and his oldest daughter.

              Well… I want you to take a closer look at Ruth chapter 4, and realize that Rahab was Boaz’s Mother.

              Read that genealogy there in chapter 4 starting with Pharez… and count the number of generations. Tell me when you get to 10… and who it is.

              Now… I learned that from someone about 11 years ago… and a few other things about the book of Ruth that made me start asking why the church had never taught me about this. The person that taught me didn’t know what to do with the 10 Generations for a Moabite thing… he didn’t know where to start that count.

              It bothered me for a long time too… Until I realized that RUTH herself was coming into the congregation (the body) of the Lord… and I started to count. The bible doesn’t list the Generations of Moab though… does it?

              So how do you figure it out? Well… go back and read the story of when Moab was conceived. In fact… go back one chapter earlier. God announces that somebody else was going to be born within a year’s time. Isaac.

              Isaac, Moab and Ammon… had to have been born within days of each other, at the very most a few weeks.

              Isaac is your base to start counting from. Start with him and tell me who you get to when you get to 10.

              So on one hand… SURE God had it under control, he put it in the law as part of the identification process of who the Messiah would be. He’s fulfilling every jot and tittle.

              I’m sorry if you don’t think that God wasn’t overly protecting the Messianic line… but respectfully, that doesn’t line up with the biblical record. Every single law acts as an identification marker that points to him.

              Your statement about “the image of God”…and “the practices of their neighbors”.

              I’ve already gone on too long… but there is quite a bit of truth there… I’ve written a short research paper on the topic of Molech worship… If you read up on Molech on Wiki… and read the account of the Abrahamic Covenant that God made… You’ll be raising your eyebrows and saying “Oh my God.” Because one is a direct copy of the other.

              And for the same reason.

              Peace brother Puritan,

              If you should happen to have interest and can find the time… I submit the bible study on Ruth that changed my life for your investigation:



              The Buckethead Baptist

              • Steven,

                Thank you for the response. I appreciate it. As I have been thinking about what has been written. It would seem to me that you are trying to argue from two different points. In the first post I responded too, you were trying to argue that the reason God prohibited homosexuality was to protect the Messianic Line. My conjoiner was that the prohibition may not necessarily be about the Messianic line as much as it was the concern about being made in His image and who He is as God in the midst of Israel.

                This second line of thought is interesting and am aware of several if not most of the items you mentioned. Yet, it is a completely different argument. It is very true that the Bible has within it the very story of Jesus being our Messiah and Savior. Since Gen. 3:15, it is what we ought to expect. Even in Deut., Moses tells the people to look for someone greater than he who will come and so every person raised by God is to be compared to Moses to see if that individual is greater than he.

                There are several holes in the line of thinking in this second area of thought that is concerning. You mention that the reason why Judah’s two sons died were because they were half Canaanites and could not be part of the bloodline of Jesus. Yet, there is no Biblical text to support this assertion. However the Bible is clear that Er died because he was evil in the sight of the Lord and the Word is clear why Onan died, not because he was half-Canaanite but because he would not do the brotherly duty of producing off-spring. If your contention was true, God would have kept him alive for he was not producing any offspring at all.

                If being partial Canaanite was what caused death, then Perez should have died, Boaz should have died as well. Tamar and Rahab were Canaanites. Jericho was to be destroyed and all the inhabitants killed. However, Rahab acknowledge who God is and was spared along with her family. It did not matter her blood or what she had done as a living, but her faith. As you admit, we do not have the genealogies of Moab. Ruth may have been 10th generation, but it is also just as likely that there may have been Moabites who married into Israel before Ruth, who had sons and daughters being the tenth generation.

                Though the idea of Moab and Isaac being born around the same time is interesting, it is still just conjecture. We have no idea and there is no textual evidence to support the conclusion you are espousing. We have no idea how long Lot and his daughters lived in the caves before they devised their plan; it may have been a few months, a year, or even a decade. Granted, it is not outside the realm of possibility that Isaac and his cousins were born around the same time, but that is really the best we can say.

                I am not disagreeing that God’s Word is the Melodic line of the Messiah. I am though saying that God being overtly protective is a bit of a stretch that seems from the two postings to have several holes in it, reading into it more meaning than what the text offers. So far, Jesus comes from a line that has a double dose of Canaanite blood and Moabite blood mixed in. Never mind any other cross-marriages that may have occurred. For instance, Joseph’s sons were half Egyptians and if Judah’s offspring intermarried with Joseph’s, well then he would have Egyptian blood as well someway, somehow.

                The blood line that is important is via the covenant promises that God made. The Messiah is to be an offspring of Abraham, an offspring of Judah (made known after the Tamar episode and via the blessing offered by Jacob on his deathbed), an offspring of David.

                The Law of Moses was given as a covenant between Israel and God. If they broke the laws, they would be expelled from the land.

                Peace and blessing to you as well, Steve.

                In His Grip

                • Bucketheadbaptist

                  I hope you are still following this thread Puritan…

                  I’ve yet to find a textual verse of proof in your claim that Tamar or Rahab were Canaanites.

                  Could you please provide?

                  I could provide the verses against Canaanite incursions into the Messianic bloodline… but I can’t find any to back up your claims… and I’d love to see it.


                  The Buckethead Baptist.

                • Let me ask you, Rahab lived in Jericho, who controlled it when it was destroyed. Tamar lived near the town of Timnah if not directly from the town itself. The town was Canaanite. We do need to remember that these towns are located in Canaan and thus the people who reside there would be Canaanites.

                  Jericho is a Canaanite city and therefore its residents are Canaanites. Timnah is a town that was inhabited by Canaanites and one would defer that Tamar, not being from the Mesopotamia would rightly conclude that she is from the land of Canaan, part of the Canaanites. The texts are clear as to where they originally lived.

                  Yes, I am following the thread the best I can.


                • Bucketheadbaptist

                  Ok… so you are inferring from residency that they are Canaanites… right?

                  You’ve got no particular verse that says “Rahab the Canaanite”… or “Tamar the Canaanite”… is that what you are saying?

                • Are you trying to argue that they are not? The evidence that surrounds both of them do point towards them being Canaanites. What else could their lineage be? We have to remember that even the Hittites and the Hivites were considered to be Canaanites.

                  If Rahab is not a Canaanite, then what was she? Even Tamar? They both resided in Canaanite towns.

    • white531

      Where, indeed.

  • I hope the Scoop lets me post this video. John MacArthur does a excellent job explaining to Larry King and Chad Allen why homosexuality is so wrong. It really shows how to give a Biblical response to this issue.

    • Indiana

      Homosexuality is not wrong.

      • Nothing is wrong.


        • Indiana

          Homosexuality is not wrong. Being gay is not wrong.

          • When nothing’s wrong, sure.

            But you’re doin’ it wrong.

            • Indiana

              That’s wrong

              • That’s repetitive. And boring.

                • Indiana

                  An opinion.

                • Repetition is a troll’s gambit. Do it again, and you’re gone.

      • crosshr

        nothing in homosexuality is not wrong.

        • Indiana

          I believe there is a difference in saying that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexual acts are wrong. I believe saying that homosexuality is wrong translates to saying that being gay is wrong while saying that homosexual acts are wrong translate to saying that men having sex with men and women having sex with women is wrong.

          • crosshr

            you’re making different outfit from same fabric

            Jesus talk about sinning is not only action ( act upon ) but it is also, I would have sinned in my heart say, just by looking at a woman and thinking of having sex with her. there, just by thinking, I’m a fornicator

            come to mind as I type, why would Jesus had to admonish that way, maybe just maybe GUYS THINK about sex too many times a day compare to women. I could be so wrong ! women may think more ! lol I duct !

            • Indiana

              I stand by my position.

              • crosshr

                no one try to change your position, I too firmly stand on my Biblical scriptural position

          • badbadlibs

            Huh? Good gravy… wonder we as a nation are in such trouble. No offense, but that was the biggest bunch of gobbly gook I’ve ever read.
            Dear person…please, please, please read the Bible, the one whose Author is the Living God.

            • Indiana

              1) I would say we are not going down as a nation because people do not subscribe to your way of thinking. Goodness, there are Atheists, Jews, Muslim and people of other faiths in this country.

              2) I subscribe to the New American Bible. If we as a conservative movement and as the Republican Party keep preaching our bible, which ever they be, will drive people away from voting for the movement and/or party.

              • crosshr

                for your sort of mentality, no wonder the republican have no chance. We’ve become the party of feely touchy nicey nicey. All emotion no substance, the election was even lost before it began.

                • Indiana

                  What do you think involving ones religion is? All emotion and no substance in regards of policy. That is touch touchy nicey nicey.

                • crosshr

                  No, I don’t believe in religion. I am attracted to Christianity as I mentioned before, because I certainly determine to make it to Heaven. Knowing how I can never make it on my own and yet Someone make it possible for me by trading place with me is what make me emotional when I thank HIM .That is my Lord Jesus.

                  Yes, He is my Comforter, my everlasting Father, my Prince of peace ( wonderful peace) my joy, my provider, my way, my Healer of my body and soul (my double cure)
                  and one day will come back to take all believers away with Him that are called by His Name (Jesus )

                  If you don’t find that yet in your congregation, I would keep on looking. But we are different, I don’t easily settle and never get satisfied. I content,but in this life we get emptied, but we decide to refilled, that’s living . No Religion ever registered of leased real estate in Heaven. It’s only through Born Again through water and Spirit, not religion.

                • Very well said crosshr!!

              • badbadlibs

                Nonsense. But, you’ve made your points, it’s clear where you stand.
                You’re not alone, the road you are on is wide. You can leave at any time and cleave to the Living God, obey the Gospel and have eternal life, I pray you do.
                Acts 2:38

                • Indiana


                • las1

                  Indiana… I want to say kudos to you for sticking around and tirelessly defending your position… it takes real guts. And I’m going to agree with you only in an oblique sort of way in that “being” homosexual is not a sin. But we’ll try to get off the homosexual kick for a bit and take it from another angle. Then we’ll come back to it. Please try to think of it this way.

                  Let’s say a man… a normal heterosexual man is a reprobate. He can’t control his lust for women. He thinks about women constantly, young women, old women. He’s a porn addict, he goes to strip clubs, his obsession interferes with his work. It’s ruining his life… He knows it is out of control, but he can’t help himself. He’s a normal sexual being, but he’s a “heterosexual” pervert? Yes. His sexuality is broken and he can’t change it. Is heterosexuality a sin? No of course not. But that’s not the question. His sexuality is broken.

                  In simplistic terms he’s a pornosexual, a stripclubosexual, a bigboobsosexual. The same goes for homosexuality. Homosexuality is good sexuality gone bad. Then the problem becomes one of entrenched psycosexual/chemical processes. These processes have cemented into his psyche and into his sexual responses… in the same way that a sex addict of any stripe is enslaved.

                  But in our modern culture, what has happened is that a whole subculture and a political movement and a sexual industry and a cultural agenda has sprung out of what in reality is broken sexuality.

                  And I am sorry to tell you this, but your views on homosexuality are not even in step with what the Roman Catholic Church has to say on the matter. Look it up and do your own research on the matter.

                  So this dichotomy between heterosexuality and homosexuality is falsely constructed. It’s not like they are two different and amoral flavors of tea. Homosexuality is a broken sexual response. Heterosexuality is the God ordained norm.

                  Now for the Christian dealing with same sex attractions he must do exactly what a normal heterosexual man or woman is required to do… repent and stop all outward sexual acts of fornication. Now he is in a position to work on his inner sexual feelings. Now his sexual feelings and thoughts are covered by huge dollops of Jesus’ love, grace and patience until his mind is renewed by transformation. He must be willing to allows God to do the transforming by the washing of His Word, the Bible.

                  Here… this will help you… it’s from the Roman Catholic New American bible Romans 12:1-2. Approved by Rome:

                  I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship.
                  Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.

                  I certainly hope this will be a beginning of a journey to discover what The Bible… yes… the Roman Catholic Bible has to say on this.

                • Indiana

                  Do you eat fish?

                • las1

                  I meant to give you a little support in your lonely pursuit to justify yourself.

                  But if lashing out, with comments fit only for high school, seems to be your only defense in place of reasoned argument then you’ve certainly joined the wrong crowd here. if you keep this up it won’t be long before you are banned by someone with less patience than the rest of the good folk here.

                  Maturity, circumspection and some good sense are the hallmark of someone professing to be a good Roman Catholic. They exist among my Catholic friends. But these qualities evidently are not in evidence on your side of the ledger.

                  I’m happy to engage you, but you obviously don’t plan on being engaged at Right Scoop for very long.

                • Indiana

                  How can I insert reason into an argument with those who don’t believe in reason.

                • las1

                  I’m very sympathetic to a lonely voice against a fog horn of opposing opinions. I get that. Some responses to you were reasoned, others maybe not so much. I can’t answer for others. But like I tried to indicate to you, your response to me was utterly classless. I won’t ask for an explanation… you know what you said. And I can’t continue with you if there is a repeat.

                  If you told me your age, I may be able to quarter my responses to you appropriately.

                • Indiana

                  Every response to me is not reasoned. Just respond to me as you wish. If you cannot handle my comments to which are apart of spirited debate than stay out of the argument to begin with. (Translation= If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen)

                • las1

                  You obviously paid little attention to what I just wrote, nor take any responsibility for your previous vile comment. Now run along. You had your chance

                • Indiana

                  The only vile here is you. Now please go and play somewhere else so more intelligent people can debate politics.

                • That was way out of line. One more, and you’re done here.
                  These people, including myself, are trying to show you that Christ is the answer, not the church. No building, no man, no denomination- CHRIST is the only way. We are trying only to point you to His Word. Because we care. If that makes us stupid, so be it- they’ll be a lot of stupid people in heaven some day.

                • las1

                  And I’ll probably be standing in the stupid line with you… or maybe standing in the line next to you… the line for dummies. There’s another line a bit down from ours… the “big dope” line. But all us stupidos and dummies and big dopes will be standing with our Lord. And hopefully our friend Indiana.

                • Amen las1. I can’t wait. I’ll love seeing my fellow fools, and yes, Indiana too hopefully. 🙂

                  BTW, I couldn’t reply to your other comments lol, but there’s no where to do it!
                  I grew up in Anglican church too, and the only reason I called it ridiculous was to poke at Indiana for calling it so.
                  I’ve enjoyed your comments to sweet brother. 🙂

                • las1

                  I believe my criticism of the liberals in the Anglican Church concurs with your use of the word ridiculous. It’s soon to be absorbed by the Borg Mothership Rome anyway.

                  Did I mention that there’s a “silly” line as well. I’ll have to split myself in four to fit in each one. Maybe the Lord will be merciful and instead of chopping me up in four pieces, he’ll make me spend a bit of time in each one… sort of like purgatory! Ah! There! I’ve done it now! I’m a Roman Catholic… ahhh!

                • Sorry las, have to reply here- these disqus thingies are driving me nuts on busy threads.
                  You cracked me up. I might have to split myself up for those lines as well. You made me laugh brother. xoxox

                • He asked me too if I eat shellfish. I know where that was headed, but it came right out of the blue- right after he asked if I’d sacrifice my child if God asked me to. OY!!

                • las1

                  Wow! 548 plus Comments on that thread… that’s gotta be a record at Scoop.

                  You had much more patience than I had. I was cordial, even complimentary, but as soon as he hit the “creepy” button it was going no-wheres-ville fast. My only regret was not getting his age after I asked. I kinda got the impression he couldn’t keep straight who he was interacting with… hence the disconnectedness.

                  … sacrifice your child!!! … OY!! is right.

                  Anyway… it’s Saturday Night and it’s Las1 at the movies. Gonna watch Cary Grant and Myrna Loy in “Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House”. You’re welcome to watch… just bring the Orville’s. At about the 14min mark there’s a wonderful part about “progressive” education and oppression of the working class… it sure was creeping into education way back in 1948 too. The seeds were sown, and we are harvesting the fruit…. that’s for sure. Enjoy, or bookmark it for a later lazy afternoon (of course every afternoon is lazy in sunny Florida… Me so Jealous… I had to shovel snow twice today, and have little snow pathways in the back yard for my little wiener dog to run around, or he’d get lost in the snow and I’d have to take the hair dryer out back to melt it to find him.

                  Anyway… enjoy, or bookmark it for later.

                  It’s a wonderful old “America as it used to be” film.

                • LOL our weather may sometimes be lazy, but I never have time anymore. But one of these days I’m gonna take a whole day to veg in front of youtube. I’ve got a few things I want to see 😀
                  Thanks Las- as always, it’s been fun with you lol. Enjoy the movie brother, and Blessed Sunday to you.(((()))S

                • I am standing up and cheering you!!!!

                • Thank you Laurel I appreciate that! and you 🙂

                • HarrietHT2

                  The cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing.

                • I know. 🙁

                • las1

                  AbiC… you may want to keep an eye on our little friend Indiana. I fear he’s looking to terminate his time here at Scoop.

                • GOing through the thread againnow. I see I’ve got some responses to find. Thanks las.

                • las1

                  Yeah.. it’s hard to go through them. His response to me was vile it was “Do you eat fish”. It’s something you don’t hear very often, thank goodness, but I’ve been around, so am not unfamiliar with it.

                • crosshr

                  Amen and Amen Harriet !

                  To God be the GLORY !

                • Indiana

                  You are greatly out of line. The Catholic Church IS Christ’s Church. I am saddened I cannot get any of you to see the truth. You are lost.

                • You haven’t been able to accomplish much at all- none of your answers or comments have anything of substance,nor anything to back them up. You can not expect many to take you seriously when you: call words Jesus Himself said “crap”, call people evil, lost and doomed to hell for quoting scripture, repeat every time when someone has something Scriptural to show you, “Im a catholic” and leave it at that. Or “you’re wrong” and leave it at that. You have insulted many good people here, and the ONLY reason why I’ve not booted your immature self out is because some of us are willing to a logical debate- but so far, you have not given anything substantial to back up your original comment, which was that you do not believe Homosexuality is a sin. That homosexuals are sinful.
                  One more disparaging comment, one more projective comment, one more personal attack to any of the others within the next few minutes- you will be gone from here.

                • Indiana

                  Because I am not trying to have a debate on what I believe when it comes to my faith and my Church. I am trying to fight back against attacks on my faith and Church. Being gay is not a mortal sin.

              • 57thunderbird


              • I’m not going to sell my soul for thirty pieces of silver to win an election. You cling far too much to this life with little to no worry of the next life. I pity you.

                • Indiana

                  Sorry but there is a constitutional battle over this right now and there may be major rulings by the Supreme Courts regarding gay marriage that will be coming out this summer. How are you selling your soul? While I do not support gay marriage as a Catholic I do support civil unions as an American.

                • Sara

                  You cannot be of both worlds. Do you belong to God or do you belong to the world?

                  I choose God’s law over and above man’s laws.


                • It seems you cannot separate your religion from politics. The fact that you need an explanation for that comment is self evident. Yes we render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s but we render unto God what is God’s.

                  The next life belongs to God and no government has jurisdiction over it. The next life is for eternity. You are selling your soul in this life hoping to gain admittance into the next.

                  You are also a prime example of a lazy thinker. You let the culture dictate your religion instead of doing the hard work on your own.

  • sjmom

    This reminds me of when the false prophets in the OT were lying to the people and telling them all is well while Jeremiah was speaking the truth and trying to get the people to repent. God does not like lies, no matter how good they make people feel.

  • stage9

    Very, VERY good article Scoop.

  • HarrietHT2

    And another quibble: liberal Christians are anti-Christian because they teach another gospel. They teach the gospel of good works, in their case, the gospel of social justice, which makes a mockery of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross — whose kingdom is not of this world. They make the same sad mistake the disciples made, just prior to the crucifixion: they were seeking a bread king, a king to overthrow their Roman masters. The oppression from which they were seeking relief was an oppression of temporal dimensions, not an oppression of the spirit, as everyman is subject to in his enslavement to sin.

    • Good works, social justice and their kingdom come, not our Father’s Kingdom come. Well said again Harriet.

    • Bravo!

      Social Justice is like fool’s’s look all bright and shiny but is worthless.

      • But it pays well, once you get tenure.

    • Sara

      Which is why I despise the likes of Joel Osteen and his ilk.

  • I call it the “Im a christian but..” syndrome.

    I was listening to the british parliament debate on gay marriage last week, most started with “Im a christian myself but…”

    Alot of their arguments ended with “I wish my fellow christians and especially churches would change their minds on this and support gay marriage and love”

    You just want to tear your hair out listening to that drivel. We have stopped looking at Christ and started looking at the mirror. We want to change Christ to suit ourselves and lifestyles. We have become god.

    Paster Carter Conlon said it best

    “Run from Churches where your comfortable in your sin”

    • Indiana

      I do not approve if gay marriage. I do approve of civil unions.

      • crosshr

        sin then, it is !

        • Indiana

          No but I am aware if the constitutional battle. Not to mention this thread explains why we lose the youth vote.

          • crosshr

            according to the Bible, it is sin. doesn’t matter what you or I or my pastor and your Pope think when it comes to the Bible

            • Indiana

              I would strongly consider the Pope a spiritual authority.

              • crosshr

                When the Day come that God Almighty will Judges all men according to their work, the Pope will also asked to give account of his own work as well as you as well as I.
                All men !

          • badbadlibs

            We lose the youth vote because of too many people like you telling them lies. Sorry, but that’s just the truth. When sin was sin and what was Holy was respected, we had the youth vote.

            • Indiana

              No you never had the youth vote. How am I telling lies. If anyone is a threat to the youth of America it is people like you.

              • badbadlibs

                Yes, we did have the youth vote. Apparently you don’t read anything other then what a religious institution tells you to….
                I’m tired, it’s late and you’re as brain washed as they come. I’m sorry for you, even though it’s your own choice.

                • Indiana

                  Apparently you don’t understand that the youth have always moved to the liberal side of politics. Who do you think wrote your bible? The church has documents from 2000 years. I have had fun debating a loon.

                • ryanomaniac

                  You’re not a Catholic. Youre a troll. You don’t care about religion. You’re trying to be cloak and dagger but you’ve been pegged. You’re a gay Guy here to stir things up. I don’t believe you’re Catholic.

                • Indiana

                  I greatly assure you that I am a Catholic. You just don’t like what I have to say. I care about my religion which is why I have served my Church and have defending my Church and faith against people like you who wish to diminish is as if your faith and way of thinking is superior. I will be Frank, I am a Catholic and tomorrow on Sunday I will be going to my Church and i will become my nephews Godfather and I will teach him about the Catholic faith so that he will grow to become a good Catholic. I have been taking part in the Right Scoop for a while because I am a Conservative Republican. I aspire to get people elected who believe in low taxes, smart regulation, smaller government and the Constitution. I have worked on the political campaigns or Joel Phelps for Indiana’s 1st Congressional District, Richard Mourdock’s campaign for the United States Senate, gave money to Mitt Romney’s campaign, and supported Mike Pence for Indiana Governor as well as multiple Republicans for state office in Indiana. So don’t you dare question my credentials as a person of faith or my reason for being here.

                  This is something from a Catholic youth ministry I was a part of a few years ago.


                • crosshr

                  Indiana, thank you for responding to many of the comments on Scoop here tonight, I am not that good , if I feel anyone doesn’t see my point of view or don’t want to for that matter, I move on. You are heck lot of patience, something I need to update on my own life, I commend your ability to hang tough with your belief in the midst of many disapproved including I

                  I believe here at home (TRS )we have a forum where all reasoning and points of discussions got carried out many time in a very passionate emotionally full throttle in 2000 rpm. I personally hope we do engage in such activity for the care for us all for our families, friends & communities and our country and the unknown future

                  Sincerely, I respect you as a human being no different from myself. and in disagreement, I hope we agree to disagree until further research and info attained.
                  I always got excited when I get to TRS knowing I’ll find so much info to enrich and double check my decision making since blessed by the presence of this multitude of Counselor. Have a wonderful weekend !

                • badbadlibs

                  You don’t represent your faith well. Jesus never called anyone a “loon”, but then maybe the priests you follow have set that example, or the false book you call a bible….no matter. God knows His own.

                • Indiana

                  You represent yours as well. Ignorance is bliss.

                • badbadlibs

                  You are correct, “ignorance is bliss”. It’s bliss right up until the moment eternity begins. If we have not obeyed the Gospel, according to God (Acts 2:38)….then the bliss was short lived, no matter how long our earthly years lasted.
                  I pray you find your way to the One True God who became a man to live, die and rise again so that we could all live forever worshipping Him.

                • The youth of any population is always it least wise segment.

                • Indiana

                  And yet I am being told that the GOP used to have the youth vote.

          • Sara

            James 5:19-20

    • If you look at GB in the context of history the sun began setting on the Empire when God was kicked out of the public square. Soon the US is to follow suit. Many don’t think it can happen…but I do. It upsets me but I take comfort in knowing that Christ is waiting for me on the other side.

    • Sara

      Christians in name only – CINO? ChINO? Or as I prefer, ChrINO!

  • Sober_Thinking

    Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. God calls same gender sex, “an abomination” and His Word is VERY clear on the subject. There is no gray area. Read about Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?) – why were those cities destroyed? Because they were wicked and turned from God. Why was Lot’s wife turned to a pillar of salt? Because she looked back… after she was commanded not to by God.

    There are no mistakes or misinterpretations in the Bible (God’s Word). God HATES homosexuality. But we are to love gay people and hate their sin. It’s pretty straight forward. I don’t think you can be living a faithful or complete Christian life if you accept homosexuality and think it’s “okay”. It’s perverse and unnatural. I’m not judgmental on the subject… I’m just trying to faithful to God’s Word… I want to be a God-pleaser, not a man-pleaser (no pun intended – I mean to be tolerant of that lifestyle).

    God told us to be set apart from this world… to be light in darkness, salt… different… not conformed to the world. You cannot embrace homosexuality and please God.

    • Well said Sober_Brother. Sanctification is what comes to mind. One can’t be sanctified if continuing in sin.

    • My only difference is I’m not judgmental but I am discerning. Pop culture has misused and abuse the English language so much (and yes the left did it by design*) that people don’t understand what ‘judge’ and ‘judgmental’ actually mean any longer.

      *That was the very purpose of the left taking over linguistics departments at every major university in America.

  • I don’t think being attracted to men is a sin. I think acting on that is a sin. Kinda like how having premarital sex with women is a sin.

    • HarrietHT2

      Sin is in the heart first before it manifests itself in outward actions. All men are sinners at heart. Why try to parse the issue to make sin only an outward action? One merely compounds his sin when he acts on his sinful heart’s inclinations.

      • Ah, now there’s an old debate.

        Many a schism has rested on the failed attempt to resolve that one. I think it took the arrival, and divine departure of Jesus to fix that particular loophole.

    • crosshr

      attracting to a man is like leaving your window open, hot air may come in and fry you, or in a cold day , cold air may froze you, pick one !

    • badbadlibs

      Jesus said if you “lust” after a woman you have sinned. There wasn’t any actual doing there, just the “attraction”….think about it.

  • shield1

    There’s no business like snow business… you’re being snowed if you think God ‘really’ allows homosexuality. God does not change.

    • There are 13 verses in the Bible in regards to homosexuality and all them begin and end in ‘No”. There aren’t many because it is simply ‘No!”

      There are hundreds of verses in regards to heterosexuality and that is because he is giving divine information on how to manage and conduct a blessing.

  • I believe very few people are going to go to hell. Eternity is a long time and I doubt a merciful god would banish someone to be tormented for their actions in the small amount of time they are here on the earth. I do believe that homosexuality is a sin though. I look at homosexuality from the point of view that says “what if everyone did it?” The world would be chaos. Natural parents raising their own offspring is far better than surrogate children and adoption. Both of those things will happen no matter what but it should be kept to a minimum. Gay people need to realize that it is the heterosexuals who are holding society together and they enjoy the life they have because of it. I do not think they should feel put upon if we decide to favor heterosexual marriage.

    • 911Infidel

      Dude you might want to go study The Lazarus Phenomenon – a study in clinical death. Got news for you there already are a ton of people in hell. Christ made it clear that the road to life is a narrow one and few there be that find it.

      • Read the first verse of Matthew 7. Some of you might not want to be judged the same way you judge others.

        • Rshill7

          Being judged by others doesn’t damn the soul Brian. That happens when the real judge starts judging. You might be a little more concerned about that yourself. So should Indiana and everyone else.

          Indiana is at least as accusatory as anyone else on this thread. Except that he is wrong and many others right.

          I’ll go ahead and wait for the real Judge to judge me too. Human judges are just as ineffectual as the Catechism. Both are worthless. Man made idols.

          • The headline of this page is that gays will go to hell. Jesus did not condemn the woman found in adultery so why would he condemn gays? There are probably a lot of gay people that are more righteous than any of us except for the fact that they have gay sex. I for one do not think god would send Jim Nabors to eternal torment just because he has say sex. I do not condone homosexuality but I do not think it is among the worst things that a person can do. I believe all hedonism whether gay or straight is wrong. I also believe that hedonism exists among gays a lot more prevelently than among heterosexuals. You do not even take into account the people who through no fault of their own are born into a different culture than the one you were born into. Do you think all Buddists are going to be condemned to hell? I certainly don’t.

            • Rshill7

              What you think and believe is irrelevant. So are your ignorant questions.

              • white531

                Rshill7, are you absolutely sure you want to post that? There is no comment here, which is irrelevant. Incorrect perhaps, but not irrelevant.

            • Sara

              Jesus did not say “you are forgiven, now go have fun”, He said “go forth and sin no more”.

              Sin repeated is sin NOT repented. The longer we stay in sin, the farther we move from God; and the closer we get to Hell.

            • Sara

              …as for non-Christians, the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to those who seek righteousness.

              For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (Romans 2:13-15 NIV84)

            • Yes, but Jesus told her to go and sin no more, which would infer that she did sin. He chose to forgive her.

              You misunderstand sin and rejection of God. A person who rejects God will do so not only for their time here but for all eternity. Devil and his angels continue to reject the rightful reign of God and nothing has changed their mind on that even being damned for all eternity.

        • 911Infidel

          Calling sin, sin is an obligation that Christians have. To try and change that obligation into some sort man-made reinterpretation of scripture is just plain wrong. “Don’t you know that we will judge angels?’ How much more so, the things of this life” (I Cor 6:3)

          What Christ was talking about in his 7 woes speech was a longer version of removing the log before removing the splinter. He didn’t forbid “judgement” at all. He just said don’t judge like the Pharasees. If you’re gay don’t preach sin to that person while leading a life of sin in gaydom yourself. That’s what the 7 woes is all about Charlie Brown.

        • My dear there is ‘judge’ and ‘judgement’…do you know the difference? One discerns and the other condemns.

    • If everybody did it, there would be no children for anyone to raise.

    • God is a merciful God- which is why Jesus came to suffer Our Father’s Wrath in our place on the cross. But God is a HOLY God and does not tolerate unrepentant sin. Because of His Grace and Mercy, He has provided the means of reconciliation to Him. If people refuse, that’s not God being mean, that’s people preferring to remain worldly and sinful.

    • white531

      You will forgive me, if I politely disagree with everything you believe in.

    • badbadlibs

      “I believer very few people are going to hell”.
      You are in complete opposition to what Jesus believes:

      Matthew 7:14:

      “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.”

  • T

    Really?? More anti-gay stuff here? I like this site, but I don’t like being told I’m going to hell. RS, can you please leave this stuff out of here?

    • No one likes to be told they’re going to hell, but at least Scoop tells how they can attain eternal life in Christ. One of the reasons why many appreciate this site is because of the truth found here that Scoop puts up.

    • 911Infidel

      There’s nothing anti-anyone in this article. Telling the truth is what TRS is all about. Jesus said “the truth will make you free” We do like talking about Jesus and sin A LOT. We’re not holding back. Never did. Never will.

    • “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.” ~Matthew 5:14-15

      H/T @Sober_Thinking

    • white531

      This site does not restrict comments that are not blatantly incorrect or offensive in nature, to others.

      Whether or not you are going to hell, is not up to us. We all have an equal chance.

      • The way things have been going, I thought it was now pretty much up to the Government. They seem to control nearly every aspect of our lives, after all.

    • crosshr

      You must be anti straight or anti man and a woman married !

      Tiny percentage of the population with ill will, tirelessly attempt on controlling society of civilized human kind at large into submission to improvise their interested choice lifestyle

    • badbadlibs

      Sir, it isn’t anyone’s sexual lifestyle that will send them to hell. Jesus paid the price for ALL sin. It’s the rejection of the Gospel that sends people to hell.
      Acts 2:38

    • sDee

      What I believe is that in all we see, it comes down to good vs evil. I known of only one side to choose to be delivered from that evil. We all will have to choose soon. The sht is about to hit the fan.

      Gay Marriage And The Global Progressive Agenda

      Same Sex Marriage Part II – The ‘Progressive’ Agenda Advances

    • freeperjim

      God, in His perfect wisdom, states clearly choosing the homosexual lifestyle is wrong and an abomination.

      Obviously, you believe you are wiser and more perfect than God.

      Good luck in your eternity in hell with satan.

    • Rshill7


      “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” (2 Timothy 4:3 NIV)

      You might be going to Hell. Is that better?

      Stay away from the Holy Bible and truth tellers if you don’t want to hear something that might offend you. Gather around you some teachers that say just what you want them to say. They won’t be able to change anything in the spiritual truth realm, but it might make you feel better temporarily…which is quite different than feeling better throughout eternity.

      If the theater you might be visiting catches fire, you ought consider thanking the person or people who started yelling, “fire”. Or, you could ask them to shut-up about it so you can do your best imitation of a charcoal briquette. Being well-done is not as rare as you might think.

    • So don’t read it. No one is forcing you to.

    • white531

      If you like this site so much, why do you have only 17 comments?

  • white531

    I wish Scoop had not posted this, because it is uncomfortable, at least to me. The very idea of two grown men, playing with each other’s private parts, is an aberration of humanity.

    I believe there are more important issues facing us. Let us forget that part of our society that is just plain sick, and get back to what we can do about the really important stuff.

    Can we please do that?

    • 911Infidel

      There is NOTHING more important in here than the salvation of one’s soul.

      • white531

        Infidel, the respect you enjoy on this site, is without question.

        That being said, I also seek respect for my beliefs. Please try to understand that.

        • 911Infidel

          Oh I’m not dissing you white351. It ain’t personal, just factual. And this kind of thread is going to be seen again, and again, and again….If I disagreed with your beliefs I’d be a little more animated. You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else. So don’t take it hard.

          • white531

            I don’t take it hard, Infidel. I enjoy people like you, immensely. I may not always agree with you, but I respect you. If I were you, I would take respect, over agreement, any day.

            • 911Infidel

              Well thanks.

        • crosshr

          ok you guys make me giggle.( with much respect also white)

      • Rshill7

        You are 100% correct in that. Some people spend more time planning a single picnic or vacation than they do planning for eternity.

        That eternal vacation won’t be a picnic at all, for many. For others, it will far surpass the most vivid human imagination.

        Thumbs up.

        • 911Infidel

          Thanks. But also thanks to programs like The Lazarus Phenomenon we can gain an insight into what hell actually looks like. At this point in man’s existence there are no more excuses for not planning ahead for eternity.

    • sDee

      It is all connected my friend – nothing happens by chance. We are under siege on all fronts.

      Gay Marriage And The Global Progressive Agenda

      Same Sex Marriage Part II – The ‘Progressive’ Agenda Advances

    • I understand why that makes you uncomfortable but the breakdown of society is important. The more society breaks down the more the need for government to grow and your wallet and freedoms will shrink in the process.

      Social issues will always have a direct effect on the fiscal issues. Most of our fiscal problems are deeply rooted in social issues like entitlements.

      • HarrietHT2

        “Moral squalor and fiscal immorality go hand in hand,” so wrote a wise commenter at back in August 2011, replying to Mark Tooley’s article, “Is Endless Government Debt Irreligious?” Our nation’s profligate spending results from a nation unhitched from its moral underpinnings. Great comment, Laurel. Efforts to normalize homosexual behavior is a symptom of our nation’s moral decay, and more seriously, a symptom of a heretical church.

  • white531

    I’m sorry, but in your arguments against homosexuality, you routinely invoke Christian beliefs. Christian beliefs have nothing to do with the absolutely horrid vision of two naked men in bed together. Let us stop trying to be so civil, about something that makes most of us puke. Let us call it what it is. Abhorrent behavior, in the eyes of God.

    You think God is going to forgive these people for this? Get real!

    • tvlgds

      If they ask for forgiveness, they will be forgiven

      • white531

        Then why don’t we all live lives of total abandon, doing whatever we feel like, ignoring all God’s rules, and then, just before we die, we ask for God’s forgiveness of our sins.

        That way, we get to have all the fun, with none of the consequences.

        Works for me.

        • Last time I checked, neither you nor I are God and so neither of us know when our time here is up. It is not worth the risk nor is it worth the chance of hardening of the heart.

          By the way, you may want to try responding correctly to what tvlgds stated and not go off the deep end thinking you know what they may have meant by it.

          • white531

            I know what tvlgds stated, Puritan. I just get tired of arguing religion, because nothing is ever solved by doing it.

            My apologies to both of you.

            • Thanks white,

              I know that sometimes these discussions can get laborious. Politics and religious discussions can be tiring and yet both being just as important. When one weighs the balance on all things.

              I though can understand the despair.

              • white531


      • Sara

        Only as long as they don’t continue in their sin. Sin repeated is sin not repented.

  • From what I’ve heard, I’m not sure it’s much better here in the U.S. Pilkington makes an important point. Enabling sin and/or self-destructive behavior is not at all loving, but quite the opposite. How loving would it be to allow your child to eat all the cookies he wanted all the time? After all, he really likes those cookies. Sometimes love sounds like, “NO!”

    Such phrases as “being gay” or “being homosexual” are in common usage. But there is no such thing. Everyone is heterosexual. There simply are some who are uncomfortable (or worse) with that fact. Identity as ‘homosexual’ has only desire and action as its basis, whereas identity as ‘heterosexual’ has its basis in physical, biological reality in addition to and as a foundation for desire and action. Those who reject their own heterosexual nature are, in fact, rejecting a part of themselves and cannot be rationally considered as emotionally healthy. To encourage recovery from whatever has led to such denial is most definitely loving.

    As for the discussion in the comments about sin, both thought and action can be sinful.
    “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” ~Matthew 5:21-22a
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” ~Matthew 5:27-28

    But temptation is not sin at all.
    “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.” ~Hebrews 4:15

  • shukov

    Why in the hell would I ever decide that “being gay” is not a sin? That’s just plain stupid.

  • white531

    Infidel, its been a great evening, but I have to get some sleep. Normally, we encounter trolls who have a political bent. Not often do we encounter someone like Indiana.

    Still, Scoop is Scoop. He has a right to be here, and I think you handled it well. I have no bad feelings against him. I would gladly engage him in further conversation, but I have an early day tomorrow. I wish him well, and I bid you goodnight.

  • colliemum

    Firstly – thank you, scoop, for posting this article!
    Secondly – thank you, scoopers, for your excellent posts!

    Thirdly – Rev Chalke’s ‘teaching’ is a prime example for what Dietrich Bonhoeffer describes as ‘cheap grace’.
    I’ve posted this link before, and I would really urge you to read his words about cheap and costly grace:
    In that context, turning away from one’s flesh (i.e. in this case being a homosexual) is obviously very costly for the individual. But that is what trying to follow Christ is about.

    Costliness is not measured in monetary value. Costliness is about what it costs us, every single individual. That cost will of course be different for each of us.
    It is about removing that from our lives which prevents us to follow Him with joyful steps. Because this is hard, it is costly. It is also costly because we can only attempt to do that through constant prayer and repentance. Think of how hard it is to truly forgive someone who has hurt or wronged us.

    I think where many pastors fail is that they do not emphasise the fact that this is an ongoing, life-long process. One cannot renounce something once – be it homosexuality, be it lust, be it jealousy, greed or pride – and then think that that’s it, job done.
    It isn’t. It is ongoing, and the more we work at it, the more sensitive we become to our sins and failings.
    I compare it to cleaning a room: in the first thorough cleaning, one gets rid of all the obvious dirt and detritus, and then, as time goes on,one notices the less obvious dirt, and the dirt in all those little nooks and crannies one has overlooked. And one cannot stop, else the dust starts accumulating again … ask any homemaker!

    That is the hard work of Costly Grace – and we can only undertake it in the firm belief that Jesus is there, hearing us, helping us, and strengthening us through the Holy Spirit. If we ask Him in humble prayer, that is …

    • Well said mum. It is costly to pick up our crosses and follow Him, but that’s a price that I’m willing to pay even as I stumble every day trying to bear it. I fall every day, but I am so grateful Jesus is right there to pick me up. (((())))s

      • colliemum

        Yes indeed, and don’t know it!
        It’s a good thing my knees aren’t bruised and knocked about daily, from the falling and picking myself up, or I’d not be able to walk on step.
        I don’t know where I’d be without knowing that He will pick me up, that He will guide me.

        Or rather – I do know: I’d be in a place where prayers suddenly are just words: that’s the first sign of having seriously slid off the path. Then it’s like praying in dense fog: the words come back at you, but nothing gets through.
        This is a desperate place to be in – but Jesus does hear us, and He does rescue us, he gets us out of this place and He gets us back to where we should be. And His yoke is indeed easy:

        • I love Handel! Thank you mum! xoxoxo sister!! 😀

        • Sara

          Your words are such a blessing… Thank you.

    • HarrietHT2

      In my church circles (conservative Lutheran) we are taught to remember our Baptism daily, daily dying to sin and rising a new man in Christ, daily confession and repentance — very similar to your cleaning house analogy, colliemum.

      • colliemum

        Yes – it is the daily discipline, the daily practice, which is so important, it really is!
        I don’t think any of us here can imagine a life without this, not any longer since we started down that road, each in their own way, at our own speed.

  • This thread is depressing. So it needs some totally unrelated humor.

    (OK, it’s not really depressing, but I needed an excuse, and 1) Scoop doesn’t have an open thread up, and 2) Colliemum just commented, which reminds me of Britain, which reminds me of the recent news from there, which reminds me that James Taranto saw this humorous story at the Daily Mail about the horse meat in burger “scandal.”)

    Horse Meat Burger Jokes.

    (And there’s pics of Kate Upton’s swimsuit modeling thingy, too. You know, in case anyone is shopping for a swimsuit.)

    • colliemum

      The whole collection – ok, some are groan-inducing, but so what – shows how excellent the English language is for punning, double-entendres, and general, p*ss-taking hilarity.

      That’s why the foreigners hate us and our language: they never get the jokes.

      Thanks for the link, K-Bob. Now doubly appreciated because we learned it’s the dastardly frogs who did it!

      • I LOVE British humor!!!!!!!!! 😀

        • And British TV along with Canadian TV are so much better than American.

          • I haven’t watched any tv in a long time, but yeah Canadians have good humor too. I miss seeing the Red Green Show lol.

            • I can find cleaner shows on Canadian TV and a lot of British tv. Call me old but I am tired of being smacked in the head with filth that is ignorant and lacks creativity.

              Yeah, I’m old….and content. 🙂

              • Old and content would be great. I think I’m gonna be one of those old and cantankerous ones 😉 Kind’a like Maxine- heavy on the sarcasm lol.

      • It looks like a failure of the failing European Parliament. Similar stuff will happen now that Brits are being forced to allow immigrants they would have previously rejected. Everything is going to become one massive, mushy muddle.

        I’m gonna have to go watch some youtube clips of Hannan and Farage to get charged up again.

  • Not4TheGimmeParty

    The biggest problem we have above all is that politicians and activists have put this at the forefront for all of the wrong reasons. The rest of us know that the reason politicians do it is to divide and conquer–they have no intention of helping any homosexuals. Gays have bought into the “rights” issue without realizing that most of us agree with the left on “stay out of my bedroom”. However, they are missing the issue at the forefront that instead of gaining so-called rights, they are empowering the politicians to take over the matter entirely. It’s not for me to judge what they do here on earth, but I am not in favor of inviting more government control in or lives under another “for the good” cloak. The day homosexuals realize they are fighting the wrong battle, we may get somewhere. If they want to be able to marry, they should be demanding government get OUT of marriage, not further regulate it.

  • freeperjim

    GOD states very clearly choosing the homosexual lifestyle is an abomination and just wrong!

    Anyone who rejects that fact is rejecting God and, in essence, accepting satan.

    I choose to follow the perfect wisdom of God and reject the imperfection & evil of satanic “human wisdom” – it’s a no brainer.

  • aposematic

    Can one abandon principles and remain principled. In all things the answer is a resounding no. It is now common to do as one pleases while retaining title of pretense.

  • sDee

    Obamacare & DSM-5: How to Eliminate Christians, Gun Owners and Political Opposition

    So, what new diagnoses, designations, and revisions might be included in the DSM-5? … I believe that we shall see an increasing incidence of sinister provisions in Obamacare coming to light, and conflict within the medical and legal communities as to the government’s latitude in these areas.

    In the area of mental illness, given the administration’s totalitarian bent, this could mean an era of atrocities galore. Have you ever suffered from anxiety? Depression? Had “anger issues?” Have you ever been treated for drug addiction or alcoholism? Had trouble sleeping? Any of these and a host of others might be used as a pretext for one’s designation as a mental defective. One might suddenly discover that due to some benign neurosis or psychological episode, perhaps in their distant past, their constitutional rights have been nullified overnight.

    Such individuals may be detained by the government for an indeterminate length of time, “assessed,” and designated as suffering with some form of mental illness. They might then find themselves barred from owning or possessing a firearm, or obtaining driver’s or pilots licensees. Perhaps they will not be allowed to serve in the military or law enforcement, to work in government service, schools, day care centers, hospitals or medical clinics. And forget ever surviving an employment background check that requires security clearance.

    In the January 17, 2013 edition of Psychology Today, Toni Bernhard, a former law professor at University of California at Davis, penned Your Physical Illness May Now Be Labeled a Mental Disorder, which discusses the APA’s reclassification of a myriad of physical ailments as psychological disorders. It is a chilling insight into how this insidious process could work.

    …. in the former Soviet Union and other totalitarian states, one of the pretexts often used to do away with political dissidents and those otherwise deemed to be threats to national security was to label them as mentally ill and ship them off to an asylum. Sometimes they returned; often they did not, but they were out of the way for as long as was necessary in the capricious mind of the regime, and the citizenry was duly warned that the same could happen to them should they likewise pose such a “threat.”

    In the case of those who pose the most dire threat to Obama’s designs – Christians – these will certainly be targeted

    • sDee

      This is precisely why the leftists will happily compromise on gun control legislation that increases and broadens mental illness reporting/classification.

  • stage9

    “Liberals, or more correctly those who are apostate, actually hate their people and the LGBT community for which they profess so much love, because they tell lies and lead their people into deception, and if there is no repentance, into hell.”

    I continue to argue that what liberals are really doing is ENABLING the self-destructive behavior of homosexuals by encouraging them to continue in their destructive lifestyles.

    The homosexual lifestyle is characterized by a high degree of mental illness, suicide, disease, domestic and substance abuse. And research has shown that these characteristics are not a result of outside prejudices but are indicative of how the homosexual views himself.

    When you enable the addict –sexual or substance — you are enabling the behavior that leads to his demise. A parent of a drug addict might think that by giving her son money because he begs for it –believing that by doing so that it might help build a bridge of trust between herself and her son — is doing a good thing, but in reality she is unwittingly speeding her son’s destruction.

    When we fail to treat mental illness, we encourage the destructive behavior it brings with it.

    Exhibit A:

    • sDee

      Why isn’t the “normalization” of homosexuality and homosexual marriage being driven in Muslim or other non Christian countries?

      Why is it primarily being driven in the US and the UK?

      • Because in short…western Civilization is rich and has the luxury of moral relativism.

        Idle hands and minds do the devils work.

  • One of the best books from a christian perspective is the Complete Christian Guide To Understinding Homosexuality by Joe Dallas and Nancy Heche. it goes into detail on the biblical passages pertaining to this subject some of which have been misinterpreted by gay apologists. The Bible definitely condemns it in both testaments although of course we should be kind and considerate toward those with this inclination.

    • Sara

      I find it easiest to explain to people that ANY sexual conduct outside of marriage is sinful. Jesus makes it clear that marriage is between one man and one woman when he was discussing divorce with the Pharisees. Mark 10:6-9

  • One of the best books on the subject from a Christian Perspective is The Complete Christian Guide To Understanding Homosexuality by Joe Dallas. It presents a comprehensive analysis of the pertinent biblical passages which are being ignored or misinterpreted by gay apologists. Of course, we should love them as fellow citizens and humans but realize it’s a sin in both the O.T and the N.T.

  • 12grace

    Hagee: Gay Marriage = ‘Kiss This Country Goodbye’

  • 12grace

    Matthew 7:15-20

  • 57thunderbird

    Without repentance(turning away)there is no forgiveness,period.To condone such behavior is to condemn these people to hell.And IMO,the worst part of hell is eternal separation from God.

  • ltj ltj

    Not sure if this is in defense of Indiana or whomever.

    Let’s assume Indiana is not gay. Is it okay to “think” it is ok to be homosexual even tho you are not homosexual? Is it a sin to think something? Because it is an abomination to be a homosexual, but what about thinking something?

    Let’s say I have a good christian friend – I think they are prone to lie to be “politically correct”, and I know God hates a liar.

    I still think that person is going to heaven because they have a relationship with Jesus and I think it’s a relationship not a religion.

    I really don’t know if thinking something – (not lusting) – prevents us from having a relationship with Jesus.

    Although I do know in “end times” – political correctness means making evil good and good evil and that is where we are today – even with lots of christians I know.

    • Sara

      Our thoughts can lead us to sin. This is why Jesus said looking at a woman with lust was as bad as adultery and wishing someone dead was as bad as murder.

      When we see it from that perspective, we realize we have broken all of the commandments. It also enables us to have compassion toward those who sin against us, leading us to forgive them – just as our Father forgives us.

  • las1

    I just got in on this thread this morning, and by the looks of things everyone was up pretty late last night going back and forth.

    I only have one question… was there a full moon out last night or someting?

    P.S. Isn’t this a great site… honestly… views and ideas kicked about here, and with rare exceptions, people are fairly well respected (barring trolls that is).

    And at Scoop we have NO PROBLEM with weapons in the hands of our trolls here.

  • cabensg

    Many churches have been infiltrated, indoctrinated and subjugated just like our other institutions. Anyone Christian or non-Christian knows homosexuality practiced and condoned is a degradation of the society as a whole. I believe it’s true that this man’s teachings are meant to lead homosexuals and Christians who believe him to hell and that is the goal. If you belong to a bible based church you already know this.

  • Conniption Fitz

    The sexual political activists are leading people with same-sex attraction of every age into a life of disease, depression, addiction, suicide and early death…particularly males and particularly black males.

    “It has been over 30 years since the first gay men were diagnosed with what would later be called AIDS. Since then over 300,000 men who have sex with men (MSM) have died of AIDS, and 6,000 are expected to die this year and every year for the foreseeable future. In 2008, 17,940 MSM were diagnosed with HIV infections, an increase of 17% from 2005. MSM accounted for 53% of all new infections. It is estimated that one half million MSM are currently infected with HIV. According to a report from the CDC, one in five sexually active gay and bisexuals is carrying the AIDS virus and nearly half of those infected don’t know it. MSM are 44 to 86 times more likely to be diagnosed HIV positive than men who don’t.”

    Same-sex attraction is a symptom, a sign of abnormality, a sign that something is wrong. It is not a sign of a separate identity, orientation or ‘gender’ – all those concepts are inventions of the pansexual activists who concocted them for propaganda purposes, to defend their lifestyles.

    There is no such thing as a ‘gay/straight’ dichotomy – that is also a sexual activist invention.

  • Guest

  • Conniption Fitz

    Liberal Christians are responsible for putting up a wall to prevent people with abnormal and dangersous lifestyles from coming to the source of real help, grace and love that they so desperately need.

    It’s like telling an addict they don’t need to change…despite the fact that their behaviors are killing them and causing pain to their loved ones.

    Jesus denounced the Scribes and Pharisees for doing the same thing. Scripture consistently denounces those who call evil good, who cause young people harm, and those who distort the truth.

    • Conniption Fitz

      Emotions and feelings are NOT a person’s identity or orientation, and do not make them a separate gender. They are a psychological phenomenon, and symptom.

      Same-sex attraction is a conditioned or learned response, often beginning in early childhood. It is shaped by parents, caregivers, and the spiritual, emotional, physical and relational dynamics in the child’s environment.

      Acting out of these feelings is correlated with very negative outcomes.

      • Sara

        I agree with you completely, but this question came to my mind: What about the rare cases in which someone is born with a non-specific gender? Usually the parents choose the gender for the child and have surgery done on the child to make it male or female. Then the child is given hormones to help his/her body grow accordingly. But what if the parents chose wrong?

        Weird question, I know but such a case is occurring with the girl scouts in which a troop allowed a “boy” to join.

  • There is a reason our society and culture have the old adage “Silver tongued Devil”. Chalke is one of millions that have fallen and fit that category.

  • Rosabellax

    Do you have children? If your beautiful wonderful child intelligent thoughtful child at age 15 told you she was gay what would you advise? My daughter was in catholic school from age 5 to 14 and had to listen to how she was a sinner. She’s always been different and is now in High School trying to figure it all out. Do I tell her she’s abnormal and drive her to self hate and destruction? Do I calmly support her with love and hope she finds a happy life? I’ve advised her to take it slow, she’s more than her sexuality and let herself be a kid without taking on the social issues in the world at her age. She’s still the same wonderful person and in no way a sinner I appreciate indiana’s comments that being gay isn’t a sin. It just is. Walk a mile in my shoes and see how it feels.

  • crakpot

    The ultimate test is what you do when someone is dying of AIDS. There is no hope for the body; there is only the eternal soul to save.

    Good priests, friends, and family will council the man, try to bring him to peace with God, encourage him to ask for forgiveness for his sins.

    Gay activists will tell him there was nothing wrong with what he did.

  • 08hayabusa

    I see there are quite a few misinformed posters about whether the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Indeed it does say it is a sin. Here is just one of many statements written in the Bible. This one is by the Apostle Paul:

    (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God. . .

  • kssturgis62

    Homosexuality is called an Abomination – Not because it is a worse sin than murder, but because it goes against God’s Perfect Plan of Creation. Homosexuality is a sin, God does not put sin on levels. No sin is worse than any other. All Sin is separation from God.

    Isaiah 59:2 (KJV) 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    Romans 6:23 (KJV) 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ

    The Lords Word is very Clear on Homosexuality, From the Old thru the New Testament.

    Leviticus Chapter 18 Verse 22 (KJV)

    22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus Chapter 20 Verse 13

    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    1 Corinthians Chapter 6 verse 9

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    1 Corinthians Chapter 6 Verse 13

    13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

    1 Corinthians Chapter 7 Verse 2

    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

    1 Corinthians Chapter 6 Verse 18

    18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

    Ephesians Chapter 5 Verse 3

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    Colossians Chapter 3 Verses 5 & 6

    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    Revelation Chapter 21 Verse 8

    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    1 Thessalonians Chapter 3 Verse 3 to 7

    3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

    4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

    5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

    6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:

    7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

    2 Timothy Chapter 3 Verses 1 to 7

    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

    7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

  • T

    And there it is….the bigotry of anti-gay TRS readers. Thank you, Laurel, Rshill7, freeperjim, sDee, badbadlibs, crosshr, white531, On The Mark, 911Infidel and AmericanborninCanada for proving the the Republican is indeed a small tent.

    And a special shout out to kssturgis62 for stating that, “homosexuality is called an abominattion…because it is a worse sin than murder.” So, you are saying that me finding love with another man is worse than vile murderers such as Ted Bundy, Timothy McVeigh, and the Sandy Hook shooter. That is a wonderful thing to say, thank you.

    • kssturgis62



      Homosexuality is called an Abomination – Not because it is a worse sin than murder, but because it goes against God’s Perfect Plan of Creation. Homosexuality is a sin, God does not put sin on levels. No sin is worse than any other. All Sin is separation from God.


      Before you go on a Tangent and spout off your mouth, Please Quote people correctly. God does not have Level to sins. No ones sins are worse off than anything I did. Are they pretty terrible yes, are they downright disgusting yes, but there is no level to sin. The Lord Says ALL SIN IS SEPARATION FROM GOD.

    • And there it is… bullying and name-calling when there is no rational argument to be made. My favorite, of course, is the “quote” creatively edited in order to thoroughly and intentionally misrepresent what was actually said. NBC and Dan Savage would be proud.

      No, T, thank you for considering me worthy of your insults, but still more for giving me the honor of being considered worthy of the fine and highly commendable company of courageous and compassionate Christians, Conservatives, and Patriots.

    • white531

      You are most welcome.

  • I know I haven’t posted in a long while, but this topic has compelled me to share with everyone this 4-part series by Sr. Pastor Andy Stanley on the topic of sin. I am a Roman Catholic, but I choose worship at Northpoint Community Church in Alpharetta, GA (Atlanta area for everyone else…) because of the keen gift given him by God to spread his word in such a way as to leave me feeling closer to Jesus Christ than I have ever felt. That said, I am still a Roman Catholic and proud of it 🙂

    Please, enjoy this moving message on sin and why we sin…and if we could just convince ourselves that sin is no longer master…The world will move…In the RIGHT direction.

    Enjoy… I know I did.

  • crosshr

    vinanga little sis.

  • There are very pure 6 year old gay boys. I fail to see that their being a gay person, makes them a sinner. There are also VERY good 20 year old gay young men who are virgins who live lives of service to others. I fail to see how they are sinning.

    • unionville

      If someone is 6 years old and aware of being gay or straight someone has sexually molested you or has been exposing you to inappropirate behaviour or material.

  • white531

    Do any of you realize that this person has tied up the entire list of Scoop’s most active members for more than a day now? Excuse me, but isn’t that the definition of a Troll?

    I left this conversation some twenty hours ago, and I come back this evening, and it’s still here. The myriad of comments in the interim, have not solved a thing.

    It’s getting a little tiresome. Since when did The Right Scoop become a platform for Catholicism?

    Since when did The Right Scoop give up the wonderful mix of opinions and personalities that make Scoop what it is each evening?

    We have many faiths in this country, for a very good reason. Quite simply, because there are many paths to Salvation.

    I am insulted that one person can come here to this site, preaching and arguing with everyone present, that only the Catholic Church, can save your soul.

    For twenty-four hours now, that is what has occupied both the content and the dialogue of this site we all cherish and call home. That we should all be Catholic. That the Catholic Church is the only true Church.

    Myself, and many others here, seem to have a different opinion. Trying to impress that idea upon this person, has been seemingly impossible.

    At what point, do you just give up and move on?

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m there right now.

    I did appreciate all your comments, though. I learned a lot. I always learn a lot on Scoop.

    • I didn’t get here until 24 hours after my last visit, so I missed today’s foolishness.

      All I can say is, we don’t have to respond to these folks right away. We can let their noise cool for a while. Maybe they’ll lose interest. We’ll try to be more watchful, though.

  • Indiana

    You are obviously not going to convert me to your way of thinking and I am not going to convert you to my faith. Can we just get back to politics and all yell at the top of out lungs at Karl Rove’s attempt to attack the TEA Party.

    Matthew Chapter 5 Verses 10-12
    10. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    11. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me.
    12. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.h Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    • white531

      No, Indiana. We can’t just get back to politics, and yell at the top of our lungs at Karl Rove’s attempt to attack the Tea Party.

      Because for a little while there, you lost control of yourself, and in so doing, insulted several really good people here on Scoop, myself included.

      Feel free to post all the comments here on Scoop you can think of. You will never again see me respond to even one of them.

      I am only one person here, and that is only my opinion, which is probably worth squat, in the big scheme of things. Still, it my own personal belief, and I live by my beliefs.

      • Indiana

        I am firing back as I wish. Those who would attempt to demean my beliefs when I never in the first place demeaned theirs deserve every word I have said. No good people to not try to impose their views on someone else, good people do not attempt to tell another person of faith that they are wrong for their beliefs, good people do not attempt to demean another Church through the faults of some. People who have commented on my first comment are mean and rude people who deserve the comments I have given on this issue, you do not attempt to be a person of reason who all or a sudden becomes righteous.

        • white531

          Please read again, my last comment to you. You and I are now History.

  • white531

    “Trying to educate the willfully ignorant. I see now I cannot help drones.”

    K-Bob, AmericanborninCanada, how long are you going to let this debacle proceed?

    He’s enjoying this. He’s not doing this because of his love of God. He’s doing this, because he’s a Troll. A different kind of Troll. A Religious Troll. Something I didn’t know existed, actually.

    But he’s not doing it because of his belief in Scripture. He’s doing it, because he’s having fun. He has met a few Biblical Scholars here, but he routinely dismisses them as lacking in knowledge of The Bible.

    There is something about this person, that hints at a mental disorder of some kind. That is only my opinion. It may not necessarily be yours.

    His comments are intense. His replies to your comments are intense. Everything about his personality here on Scoop, is intense. If I were physically close to this person, I would have my handgun within reach, with the safety off.

    • I see ABiC has shortened the stay of our little, confused neo-Catholic.

      Amazing to compare how it was treated versus how any of us are treated at some liberal website. We tried, but Indiana was impervious to facts, reason, logic, and compassion.

  • white531

    I have noticed on more than one occasion, that when we stay pretty much on politics, there aren’t too many ripples on the water. We pretty much agree.

    It is only when we get into religion, and the mystery of why we are even here in the first place, that we run into trouble.

    I’m not sure I enjoy the conversations that result from that. That’s just me. Not a judgement on what you want to do. You do what you like. Scoop is Scoop.

  • Thanks for the bravery of putting this front and center Scoop. Its amazing how many of those who commented are truly ignorant of what Jesus DID and DID NOT say. And it’s a shame that many Christians want to use coercion to MAKE someone “not sin” simply by passing laws or disparaging it.

    Even Jesus said He didn’t come to judge the world. (Jn 12:47) Yet, he certainly castigated the “religious” folk who did.

    But, on the other hand, he told the woman in fornication “go and sin no more.” He CLEARLY didn’t just say “live and let live either.”

    So much of the Church is terrified of the issue of sin however, we completely bury the GRACE that Christ brought. The documentary “Lord Save Us From Ourselves” is AMAZING and extremely painful to watch as a Christian. We’ve telegraphed to the world that they have to quit their ACTS of sin – before Christ (or us) will accept them. And we also seem to exalt specific sins while God doesn’t seeing heterosexual adultery any worse than homosexuality or murder or gluttony. Sin is sin – but our focus should be in helping them to find our Savior WHO LOVES THEM AS THEY ARE – RIGHT NOW! It is the job of the Holy Spirit to change them once they are under His authority. NOT ours to do before they even find out how REAL, compassionate and loving He is.

    That isn’t to say that in matters of public policy however – we have no right to call it what it is. And certainly not to legitimize or memorialize it.

    Studies have show time and time again that ON WHOLE, the gay lifestyle reduces life span, quality of life and even sexual fulfillment. It’s a scientific fact. However, with some hetero-married couples with miserable lives – and some seemingly fulfilled homosexuals even THAT argument takes us away from the foundation of the whole philosophy our Founders had for this country.

    Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Monroe, John Jay etc, etc, etc, ALL confirmed that they did not expect our METHOD of freedom to work without a Christian moral standard being upheld by a majority of the people. The reason is that only TRUE religion, teaches people to self govern themselves. SIN leads to problems. When people are told that there is NO single standard of behavior to idealize – then EVERY behavior is up for grabs. And this is why we have a President that feels he can kill Americans with due cause. This is why a breathing human being is unsafe in her mother’s womb even days or weeks before a natural birth. This is why the man in charge of the IRS is able to cheat on his own taxes. And this is why our society – is desperately unhappy.

  • white531

    Here’s a curiosity for you. I posted several comments this evening, that no longer exist on this site. I posted them, I read them after they were posted, and when checking later, they no longer exist on the site. vaporized.

    Could be an anomaly, I guess, but they were rather lengthy posts. Like I said, a curiosity.

    • Sara

      Check to see if they are on your page.

    • Disqus loses the handle occasionally. Also, in really long threads like this, Disqus just loses itself entirely.

      • white531

        No worries, K-Bob. It showed up eventually.

  • JoJo58

    The Bible clearly states that man shall not lie with man. So…how is it not a sin? Does it have to be in the Ten Commandments for your consideration?

  • Rshill7

    Hmmm, let me think for a second. Yep. I like it.

    I did not say his post was irrelevant, as you assert, I said what he thinks and believes is irrelevant. Like one disagreeing with one or more of the laws of physics.

    If you state that you don’t believe in gravity, that belief is likewise irrelevant. The same God who put the laws of physics into motion and established their boundaries, also put spiritual laws in place. He then gave us the owner’s manual called The Holy Bible. If you disagree with it, it doesn’t matter, the laws will go on with zero deference to your beliefs, thoughts or opinions.

    In other words, they are irrelevant, like I said. Hope this helps you understand my meaning.

  • NCHokie02

    Ray Comfort put it pretty well in his latest movie “Genius”. He talked to those that claimed they were Christians yet still openly sinned and were fine with it. He mentioned to be careful to not try and adopt God to our rules as opposed to us obeying His laws. In other words forming Christ and Christianity to be “convenient” for a life of sin is a dangerous road to travel.

    • HarrietHT2

      In short, the church should inform the culture, not the other way around. When it fails, it has lost its salt and ceases to be the one, true church. Scripture says have nothing to do with such so-called Christians.

  • Scoop this is a great article, Christians reading this will be able to descern what is being tought in the name of GOD, about GOD, and the Christians faith in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Christians must alway’s expose Apostates, it is part of the commission from Christ, even JUDE is quick to point out the examples of the Apostate and where they’ll lead the people of GOD if the Apostate is not kept in check. Literally kept in check.
    The “New Evangelical” or the new queen james bible, comes from the same old Devil who tried to foolishly bribe Christ with riches and then the kindoms of this world, ultimately Jesus told Lucifer, “It is written, You Shall Worship The Lord and Him Only. It’s true today, Christians do this today remembering their masters example.
    excellent article.

  • deeme

    You can not pick and choose your bible verses..they must all go together..

    Ye shall not add unto the word, which I command you, neither shall, ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deuteronomy 4:2)
    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19)

    Lev. 18:22: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”

    Lev. 20:13: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act;…”

    Rom. 1:26-27, ” … for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts … “

  • Why would a society start thinking that maybe we should rethink our position on this issue? Our position or belief does not matter at all. If we want to be included in God’s kingdom, we have to align our thoughts with His thoughts and His Word clearly states what is or isn’t sin.
    Furthermore if we are born again we have the Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin and guides us in the way of rigtheousness, we cannot ignore God’s commandment and expect to be in His will or receive His blessings or be accepted of Him now or in the next life.
    This is a black and white, hard and fast rule with our God and our thoughts on the matter only affect us, it doesn’t change whether God views Homosexuality differently, He already said it is an abomination and has not changed His mind.
    We can only pray for those who seek to rise out of sin.

  • Kelly60

    It is unfortunate that this and other religious “topics” create a divide amongst consrvatives. I do not agree with homosexuality; however, my Lord tells me to love them and allow my actions to do my talking. That’s what I try to do.