This is another great report from CBN News on how the founders were heavily influenced by Christianity as they established this nation:
Comment Policy: Please read our new comment policy before making a comment. In short, please be respectful of others and do not engage in personal attacks. Otherwise we will revoke your comment privileges.
Atheists erect a monument to Atheism next to the Ten Commandments in Arizona.
Don’t imagine they has any ‘problem’ with using “In God We Trust” money to build it.
tinlizzieowner Where in Arizona?
Alex AZ tinlizzieowner
My mistake, it’s here in Florida. :-/
But you can bet it will be coming to a town near you too, soon.
By the way, I’m real glad I’m not stationed at Luke Air Base anymore. It can reach an easy 130 degrees on the flight line during the summer. I still have ‘family’ living in Glendale and Phoenix.
tinlizzieowner Alex AZ We do have Freedom of Religion,. Atheism is an interesting religion since it requires the existence of other religions before they can practice theirs.
tshtsh tinlizzieowner Alex AZ
A situational hypocrisy these characters don’t seem to be able to grasp.
tshtsh tinlizzieowner Alex AZ So they’d have to invent God if He didn’t exist, just so they could have something to deny.
Thanks for the timely reinforcement and reminder.
Again, the truth lives on through the Word. It amazes me how when people focus on GOD and not on man, things like the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, etc… can be done even in the face of evil. We war not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities.
I guess it means something to have your faith, your bible and your gun to fight for God. No wonder this Administration, Progressives, liberals, etc… want to take God out of everything so they can kill unborn, enslave everyone to the government, and make people be second class citizens. God wants you to serve him and then he will bless you. That is why we have to be a nation under God. He is our protection.
Gives me chills.
Keyes Me too!
I bet you won’t find those facts & excerpts from letters copied in today’s history books…
Thanks for the blurb. That kind of thing feeds my soul & causes me to renew my will to fight for our nation, who clearly had His fingerprints all over her.
Today at the Sunday Vigil Mass, the Second Reading was from the Letter of St. Paul to the Galatians and it was exceptionally fitting for the Sunday before the 4th of July on which we declared our Independence:
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. . .13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (Gal 5:1,13-18)
A very fitting reading I think for our times, as current today as it was 2000 years ago when St. Paul set it to paper.
I have no doubt our Founding Fathers have read it many times.
John Craven – New Orleans
JohnCraven Amen. Peace be with you, brother.
And Happy 4th of July to you, Is_Sense_Common. And “VIA CON DIOS!”
John Craven – New Orleans
JohnCraven Thank you kind gentleman. And also with you!
America is a Christian nation. I pray it stays that way .
poptoy1949 American isn’t a Christian Nation (TM). America is a nation of lots of different religions with religious freedom. In fact, some of the early settlers came to America to escape state religion. The First Amendment gives Americans the right to believe in any religion, and it creates a separation of church and state. America is not explicitly any religion.
notpilgrims poptoy1949 What a clever little boy you are…Cracker Jacks or Gummi Bears?
doofuschmartz notpilgrims poptoy1949 America isn’t a Christian Nation (TM). Have you ever read our founding documents? The First Amendment itself guarantees us freedom of religion. You really need to read some American history and governance documents.
notpilgrims doofuschmartz poptoy1949 Pilgrim, I guarantee that I have more than adequate scholarship when it comes to the study of World, American, and State Histories. I not only read our founding documents, I memorized them. “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posteritydo ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” That would be the Preamble, shall I continue, with the ENTIRE Constitution…???
doofuschmartz notpilgrims poptoy1949 Right, if you knew the Constitution, then you would know about the widely recognized First Amendment, which gives us freedom of religion and prevents the establishment of a religion, thus rendering us a nation with no official religion and not a Christian Nation (TM).
notpilgrims doofuschmartz poptoy1949 doofuschmartz has it right. It might be helpful to you to study the original documents as it seems you are confused about the differences between ”Freedom of Religion” and the “establishment of religion”.
ps: the separation of church and state is an embellishment pounced upon by progressives to undermine the constitution.
doofuschmartz notpilgrims poptoy1949 It is because of the US being a Christian nation that others of different faiths or no faiths can worship or not here. Good luck getting the same in a predominantly muslim, hindu or Buddhistc country. Good luck getting that in an atheistic country.
The Only reason people have been able to have the freedom of religious beliefs is because Christians know that we can’t force people to accept Christ, and that all people have free will- from God.
notpilgrims doofuschmartz poptoy1949 You seem to be confusing brands of religion with basic Christian belief, along with confusing what is allowed to the Federal government, versus belonging to The People.
The First Amendment declares (among other things) that The Federal Government–as an entity–is forbidden from having a religion. I don’t want the government to have a religion, I want it to respect individual Liberty.
However The People are, and always have been since the colonial period, predominately, overwhelmingly Christian. The Constitution guarantees that right, just as much as it protects the rights of Sikhs, Hindus, Mormons, and other faiths. But nothing about the First Amendment has ever changed the history, makeup, or devotion of the majority of The People to Christianity.
We are thus safe from your meaningless declaration.
patriot077 notpilgrims doofuschmartz poptoy1949 The Separation of Church and State is what you just mentioned when you mentioned the establishment of religion. The establishment of religion is prevented. That separates the church from the state. The state cannot illegally promote religion and engage in religion because it is prevented from doing so.
AmericanborninCanada doofuschmartz notpilgrims poptoy1949 We aren’t a Christian Nation. We are a nation with no official religion. Theocratic nations are always antaganistic towards believers of other religions due to their theocratic nature. Theocracy forces religion on everyone. But we are not that way because we have an establishment clause in our Constitution.
Every country that allows freedom of religion allows people to worship freely. Look at Israel. A lot of people in Israel are Jewish. Somehow they still allow people to pray to Allah or Jesus even though they aren’t a majority Christian nation. Why? Because they are a democratic nation without many restrictions on religious practice, similar to America. Most of the developed nations in the world let people practice religion openly: Hong Kong, India, Japan, South Korea, and most of the other developed countries of the world.
K-Bob notpilgrims doofuschmartz poptoy1949 I’m not arguing that people aren’t allowed to practice any religion they want, including Christianity. But “the people” are actually 300 million individuals, so “the people” can’t be classified as one thing or the other. Each individual person can be classified.
When people say, “America is a Christian Nation,” it sounds like they are referring to the nation. America is one nation made up of a lot of people. A “nation” can refer to a government or a people, but even when it refers to a people, it would seem to refer to those people as a monolithic people. It would be more accurate to say, “A majority of Americans are Christian.”
notpilgrims patriot077 doofuschmartz poptoy1949
You missed the biggest issue of our day. It’s not that the gov’t is establishing an official denomination – it’s that they are trampling the injunction against preventing the free exercise of religion.
It seems to me you’re terms need to be defined. What do you mean when you say “the state cannot . . . engage in religion?”
notpilgrims K-Bob doofuschmartz poptoy1949 You have to form a nation around something, otherwise all you are defending is geography. You don’t secure the blessings of liberty by letting the geography do the talking.
So nations coalesce around a culture. WHere Liberty is enshrined, that culture will be dynamic and changing, but it should change on its own, and not by pressure from statists who simply seek control.
You cannot have a common culture without a common language (if for no other reason than the fact of languages that laws cannot be strong when language differences alter meaning.). You cannot have a common culture without borders that are enforced. (Ask a leftist to open up his country club to just any old geezer who wanders across the threshold and see the reaction.)
This particular nation was formed from within a culture of predominatntly English-speaking Christians. None of you declarations can change that. Nor should we allow them to.
There is NO separation of church and state in the Constitution. The First Amendment prohibits the Federal Gov’t from establishing an official SECT of Christianity as the official religion. States were allowed to have an official SECT of Christianity and many did.
It is unconstitutional for the federal gov’t to meddle in religious affairs….for example, ObamaNOcare’s mandate that the Catholic Church provide birth control in their health insurance for their employees is unconstitutional.
The metaphorical wall of “separation of church and state” was a phrase Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut. It meant that their was a WALL of Separation from the Federal gov’t and the states It meant the federal gov’t (including the Supreme Court) could NOT tell us that we can’t pray at events, put up a cross, etc.
Should have said “there” not “their”.
Keyes notpilgrims poptoy1949 I don’t think the non pilgrim would notice.
AmericanborninCanada Keyes notpilgrims poptoy1949 You took the words right out of my mouth…
Keyes notpilgrims poptoy1949 There is a separation of church and state. It’s right there in the First Amendment where it says the government cannot establish religion. That prevents the government from doing religious practices through the government, effectively separating the church and state.
It’s interesting that conservatives usually want private groups to do most functions, but when it comes to religion, one of the most personal things, they think the government should be involved–not separated–from it.
No there is no separation of church and state “right there in the First Amendment.” Stick to the words of the amendment. The words chosen weren’t by accident, and they convey a specific meaning.
I can’t buy your argument that most conservatives want gov’t involvement. How about something concrete to substantiate your claim. My experience is exactly the opposite.
notpilgrims poptoy1949 You can be as non-Christian as you like. It doesn’t change history one whit.
Conservative Christians always talk about how they think Christianity shaped the founding of the country. Why do you keep making reports that say the same thing? Write a report about something new that has been unreported so far, rather than just copying and pasting previous reports.
notpilgrims Why dont you just leave this great Christian country?
salty walty notpilgrims First, it isn’t a Christian country, so even if I hated living in Christian countries, then I wouldn’t have to leave. If you like religious countries so much and think that it is a good idea to move if you don’t like your country, then you should move to Iran.
Second, even if people have some disagreements with their government in America, they shouldn’t necessarily just up and leave. In America, someone who disagrees with their government can change it. A real patriot would change their country, not leave it. Which tells you something about whether Snowden is a patriot.
notpilgrims salty walty
No, changing the country isn’t synonymous with patriotism. Look at the agenda of the Marxist democrats. Their change is synonymous with subversion – not patriotism.
Similarly, Snowden’s actions isn’t synonymous with patriotism. He broke laws, violated his oath, etc.
For those who want to change the country there is a way to do so that is in accord with the provisions of the Constitution.
Patriots take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not to avoid it, subvert it, corrupt it, etc. Those who can’t support and defend the Constitution aren’t patriots and should “just up and leave.”
notpilgrims salty walty We’ve had enough change. It’s time to teach Americans their true History, which was what made America great to begin with. From the Pilgrims on, from the Mayflower Compact on, America has been a Christian nation. Just because the dear leader says “we are no longer a christian nation” doesn’t change Historical fact, no matter how much progressives would like to.
Scoop posting these kinds of stories is keeping the truth out there so people can learn. If you don’t like these stories, why do you bother only coming on to comment negatively? He’s got plenty of other stories up. Go comment on one of them if you don’t like this one.
notpilgrims salty walty
Well, NOTpilgrims (your name shows your contempt for this nation), that would be news to our founders.
I forget which Founder said it, but he said something along the lines that we are a Christian nation and that it was important that we elect Christian leaders.
It is truly pathetic how you atheists use Iran as an example. The Iranian gov’t is an Islamic gov’t ruled by shariah law.
There is a BIG difference between shariah and the FREEDOM of our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST.
Truly pathetic if you don’t understand the difference.
”While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.”
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..” Thomas Jefferson
The quote you’re thinking of Keyes, was actually (Ironically) from one of our first SCOTUS Justices, John Jay.”Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
AmericanborninCanada Keyes notpilgrims salty walty
Yes, thank you!
Keyes AmericanborninCanada notpilgrims salty walty
AmericanborninCanada Keyes notpilgrims salty walty
Right back at ya!
notpilgrims Just because comrade O says we’re not a Christian nation, you need not believe him, he has been known to lie like a rug!
It became a sad day when you progressive types thought better of what the founding fathers decided how this nation would be created and sustained.
We’re in a filthy mess because this nation ditched all things decent and necessary to survive as a great people in favor of depravity.
Of the 56 men that signed the Declaration of Independence 24 had seminary or Bible degrees. I’m positive they did not shut off their Biblical knowledge at any time during this country’s beginnings.
From the writings of John Adams:
“”The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.”
You can continue to spew lies about the foundation of this nation, but there are still those who know better and will continue to tell the truth. You people will have to wait a few more generations before ALL the truth is erased from history, but until then deal with it.
badbadlibs notpilgrims badbadlibs notpilgrims We actually aren’t a Christian nation. We do not have any official religion as a nation. There are atheists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, and people with many other religious beliefs living in America. (Run, run away to Iran where most of those religions aren’t allowed! That will save you from the Jews!)
You obviously have never read the First Amendment if you think that America is a nation with an official religion (a “Christian Nation”).
Or, if you are referring to demographics, do I have to pull out a Census report to show you how many people of how many different religions live here and are citizens?
There has never been a time when ALL people were Christians. That is not what is meant by “we are a Christian nation”.It means we were founded on Biblical principles…Christian principles.
Keyes notpilgrims badbadlibs
We’re seeing that proved in the negative.
As the progressive/leftists/socialists continue to undermine those principles by undermining the values in our founding, and written in the Declaration and Constitution we’re seeing the rule of law deteriorate along with the values and morals of the country.
notpilgrims What a sad, disillusioned little fellow you are, pilgrim…
doofuschmartz notpilgrims You obviously pay no attention to the conservative media. I mean, just look at David Barton, for example. He’s quoted in a lot of conservative outlets talking about how America was founded on Christianity. There’s nothing new here.
notpilgrims doofuschmartz Pilgrim…why don’t YOU get a BIBLE and study it? I really think it would help answer all of the questions that you don’t have answers to. Furthermore, you would love the answers that you find there…guaranteed.
doofuschmartz notpilgrims Why would I study a Bible knowing that what it says is wrong? I don’t see you studying a Koran!
FURTHERMORE, even if I was a Christian, studying the Bible would give me no insight into whether America was founded as a Christian Nation (TM) or not! Studying the Constitution and the other documents of our governance and law would tell us how America was founded.
We KNOW it’s nothing new.
It is our history, but then again, you lefties don’t teach history anymore anyway….
David Barton actually quotes Bible verses that relate to our Founding Documents. The three branches of gov’t come from the Bible.
As for the k oran…many of us HAVE studied it….that is why we loathe islam….it is an EVIL, WOMAN HATING, TOTALITARIAN doctrine. It needs to be banned from our shores.
You are on a conservative media site right now…sit on your hands and learn something or go away and resume your hollow life.
Uhhh…where do I begin? First of all, Pilgrim, you don’t see me studying period, Bible, Koran, or otherwise. Furthermore, what little I have studied of the Quran, was enough to tell me it was full of lies, perversions, and evil. As far as you knowing what is in the Bible is wrong…amazing, that’s all I can say. The greatest philosophers, scientists, and scholars in the world from the beginning of history have not been able to prove the Bible has a single inaccuracy, despite repeated challenges, and yet…YOU…whoever obscure little man that you are, KNOW IT IS WRONG…as I said, amazing!
Yes, every time someone sets out to prove the Bible wrong, they find artifacts that prove the Bible is ACCURATE.
Keyes doofuschmartz Coincidence…???
…..or perhaps the Bible is not only the word of God, but a very historical book as well…..
BIBLE stands for, “Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth”.
Keyes notpilgrims doofuschmartz It really is Basic too…so simple a child can understand, and yet confuses the most learned scholarly pagan. Ohhh, but what a love letter…beautiful and amazing…
Check out this two minute video.
RighteousCrow_JustCaws notpilgrims doofuschmartz Conservative media sites are supposed to talk about repealing Obamadon’tcare, cutting entitlements, and other related topics. Not about topics unrelated to conservatism.
doofuschmartz Many people have proven various aspects of the Bible wrong… And you yourself just said the Koran is largely wrong. So there’s nothing controversial about saying the dogma of a religion is wrong.
Let me get started with a few things:
Jesus wasn’t born to a virgin. He was born to someone who got impregnated.
Jesus isn’t going to return. He died a long time ago, so he would not be able to return.
America didn’t descend from two people who lived in the Garden of Eden.
Noah didn’t save the animals by putting them on a boat and surviving during a massive flood.
No, no one has proved the Bible to be erroneous.
Repeating the hostile attacks of those who are rebels against God hardly counts as “proof.”
Now, if you want to say, “I can prove that Jesus hasn’t returned yet.” I’ll say you’re on solid ground.
But when you say “Jesus isn’t going to return” I’ll say that you’re on shifting sand. Or, as Jonathan Edwards quoted: “Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction: How are they brought into desolation as in a moment!”
notpilgrims RighteousCrow_JustCaws doofuschmartz
In order to get back to limited gov’t, we have to get back to our Biblical roots. There is no limited gov’t without Biblical principles.
Well golly gee…if you say so!
Give ONE example of “various people proving the Bible wrong”. I have actually seen the opposite.
notpilgrims RighteousCrow_JustCaws doofuschmartz
Biblical principles ARE conservative principles. There is no way to get back to limited gov’t without Biblical principles.
Keyes notpilgrims RighteousCrow_JustCaws @doofuschmartz
True Keyes. Conservatism is rooted in adherence to the Declaration and the Constitution where our rights are described and protected.
Conservatives hold to the unalienable rights given by the Creator and progressives denounce those rights for the individual and have redefined them to be state-provided.
It boils down to a recognition of the objective, unchanging authoritative standard vs. the subjective, changing, standard of liberalism where every man does what is right in his own eyes.
As The Tyrant has expressed it: “I’ve evolved on this issue.”
“Conservative Christians always talk about how they think Christianity shaped the founding of the country. Why do you keep making reports that say the same thing?”
Because the truth is worth repeating. This country WAS founded on Christian principles..
“”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness”.
You do know where that quote comes from, right?
tinlizzieowner notpilgrims It’s also true that Japan attacked us in 1941 (and then Michael Bay attacked us in 2001 with his film) at Pearl Harbor, but there aren’t a lot of news reports about Pearl Harbor anymore. Why? Because everyone knows about it and it’s old news. Same thing with the (incorrect) claim that America was founded as a Christian Nation. Everyone who is interested in the topic already knows about it. We weren’t founded as a Christian Nation, but a lot of people have made that false claim.
Personally I disagree with the argument that our constitutional rights came from a creator. (Frankly I don’t even think the creator exists.) The people who wrote the Declaration sought to include that line, and that’s fine.
No, most people don’t know about Pearl Harbor today and most of the young today do NOT know that we were founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Your ignorant posts prove that….prove that we MUST start teaching the TRUTH about our Judeo-Christian roots.
notpilgrims tinlizzieowner ”The fool hath said in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1). I rest my case…
doofuschmartz notpilgrims tinlizzieowner
Atheist whine that they don’t have their own holiday and someone accurately proclaimed, “Yes they do….it’s called April FOOL’s Day”.
Keyes doofuschmartz notpilgrims tinlizzieowner Excellent!
“Personally I disagree with the argument that our constitutional rights came from a creator. (Frankly I don’t even think the creator exists.)”.
You are ‘free’ to believe what you want because the Founding Fathers believed your ‘rights’ came from a higher source (our Creator), than the whims of man.
I know that’s a little difficult for you to grasp but it’s none the less true.
Keyes notpilgrims tinlizzieowner
“No, most people don’t know about Pearl Harbor today and most of the young today do NOT know that we were founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
I work in a military museum. Sadly, most of the kids in the public education system don’t even know there was a Viet Nam war, much less who won WW2.
tinlizzieowner Keyes notpilgrims
Another people don’t know that were taught about Pearl Harbor is many Mexicans celebrate throughout the country and taking to the streets and chanting, “Kill the Gringo! Kill the Gringo!”
My father was a boy during WWII and he remembers that well.
The description from the Declaration is “unalienable rights.,” and that’s the basis for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
If our rights weren’t given by God, where did they come from? On what authority can anyone claim/assert/defend their rights? By what standard do we use to validate our rights?
tinlizzieowner Keyes notpilgrims And that fact was never more apparent than it was when the voyeuristic American Public watched a 19 year old female, educated in the American Public School System for at least 12-13 years admit on National MSM that she could not read cursive writing. It was also apparent that she could not speak coherently, or appropriately. She had no manners, no sense of decorum. We also learned that she had no comprehension of right or wrong. SADLY, SHE WAS A LIVING TESTIMONY OF THE FAILURE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION…
You would have to be non extant in order to have no creator. Then of course we would not be able to mock you. So you’d have that (not) goin’ for you.
The genius of Jefferson was to include that very precise phrase, “endowed by their Creator, ” because it includes all beliefs in one short phrase that is the logical equivalent of “whatever agency caused your existence, be it Divine, accidental, or spontaneous, regardless of your personal belief, or anyone else’s, because these unalienable rights attach to you simply because you were born.”
doofuschmartz tinlizzieowner Keyes notpilgrims
…or perhaps it is the SUCCESS of public edcuation…..
The Truth is what it is. Jesus Christ is God, Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
Nothing, no blasphemous evil religion or ideology invented by man (or woman) can change that.
Conniption Fitz Are you saying that religion can’t change the fact of… religion???
Firstly, I’m not debating whether or not Jesus is the Christian savior. What I was debating is whether America is a Christian Nation with an official religion or not. It isn’t, and Jesus is irrelevant to that discussion.
But for you to say that as undisptable fact, well… A majority of the world’s population would dispute you. And they would be right. Jesus is Lord just as much as Muhammad is the prophet. And don’t pretend I’m attacking Christianity by saying that. You, by saying that Jesus is the Lord, are attacking every other religion just as much as I am. That’s fine if you believe it, but just know that I am going to say what I believe, too.
notpilgrims Conniption Fitz
Have you ever read the Constitutions of the different states?
Everyone mentions Christianity in the opening statements of their Constitution.
notpilgrims Conniption Fitz You know Pilgrim, you make some pretty good arguments. You’re actually a stand-up kind of guy, even if your rhetoric is off-base. It takes a lot of courage to disagree with the majority…even if you’re wrong. Thanks for the debate. Stick around until we change your mind, hmmm?
Conniption Fitz Amen! That preaches Brother!!! ”For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him, and the name which is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and inder the earth, and EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father! (Philippians 2:9-10).
notpilgrims I’m not particularly religious myself but when my family came here in 1635 I’m pretty sure they weren’t fleeing Charles I for economic freedom.
Dr. Strangelove notpilgrims No, I don’t think everyone was fleeing for religious reasons. But some people were.
notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove Check out this movie about a monument here in America that I didn’t learn about in school. Apparently your history books didn’t include reference to it eithr.
notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove
The Pilgrims came here to flee religious persecution.
notpilgrimsDr. StrangeloveWe, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the
Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God,
hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian
Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the
true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian
faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in
the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in
the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves
together…” The Mayflower Compact signed 1620
notpilgrims You have now become the poster person for “Ignorance of the Founding of America”. Wow, what a distinction.
patriot077 notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove
Thanks for posting. There is a second video from that video that explains it even better.
Everyone should forward this to their entire email list.
notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove My point is they were. The great migration to this country in the 1630s was mainly due to persecution from the Church of England.
Dr. Strangelove notpilgrims Exactly, which is why the founders in America didn’t want a nation founded on official religion. They founded our nation on freedoms and freedom of religion. With freedom of religion, churches don’t have the right to persecute people because of their religious beliefs.
badbadlibs notpilgrims The First Amendment is only a few sentences long. Read it and get back to me. If you read it, you will find that it prevents the government establishment of religion. There’s something called the “Establishment Clause” that you ought to know.
AmericanborninCanada notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove The Mayflower Compact isn’t the basis for the US government. The Constitution is. The First Amendment prevents the government establishment of religion.
Keyes notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove Right, they were one of the groups I mentioned. Later on, when the government wrote the Constitution, they put a protection of religious freedom into the first amendment so that no one would be compelled by the government or by a church to practice a certain religion or be persecuted for their practice of their own religion.
notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove
More germane to the real threat: Gov’t doesn’t have the right to persecute people because of their religious beliefs – as Dear Leader and the progressive democrats are gearing up.
Always a Marine notpilgrims Dr. Strangelove Obama is forcing people to pay for abortions and contraceptives, which personally I disagree with, because I think the contraceptive mandate is a destruction of freedom and economic values. People should have the right to decide if they want to pay for it or not. I don’t have any moral problem with people using if, but it should be a choice.
notpilgrims Keyes Dr. Strangelove
That is correct and now you leftists are attacking our religious freedom by stopping us from having public prayers, forcing us to take down crosses, and now O and his henchmen are trying to make it a crime for our soldiers to share their Christian faith!
Dr. Strangelove notpilgrims
…and we know for sure they didn’t come here for Obama phones!
Keyes Dr. Strangelove notpilgrims Great line…LOL!
doofuschmartz Keyes Dr. Strangelove notpilgrims
Dr. Strangelove notpilgrims I agree, I’m NOT AT ALL religious…but I am a VERY ZEALOUS Christian! “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind…” (Luke 10:27). Our Lord isn’t particularly fond of the hyper-religious folk. After all, they were the ones who lied, schemed, betrayed Him, and helped to orchestrate HIS crucifixion…That said, he’s not particularly fond of the lukewarm or the fence-sitters either…just sayin…
I think they might keep saying the same things because the progressive subversives in this country keep putting out their revisionist history to weaken the nation. The truth bears repeating.
The antidote of truth needs to be administered every time the left tries to poison the minds of Americans.
Always a Marine notpilgrims If we take your argument about progressives to be true, posting the video on the Right Scoop and CNS News won’t do any good. Most people who read these sights are already converted. You would need to get it in front of people who disagree, and converting them–even if they watched it–would be hard.
notpilgrims Always a Marine
Don’t take my word – the progressives speak for themselves.
The best thing is to take the arguments of Woodrow Wilson, F.D.R., L.B.J. and Dear Leader – they’ve left a written record of their disparagement of the Declaration and Constitution, and their deceit in undermining America’s foundation.
As to the venue to expose the subversive beliefs and practices of progressives, I do so wherever and whenever I have the opportunity. Like I said, the un-American poison of the left/democrats needs an antidote.
notpilgrims It was JUDEO-CHRISTIAN FAMILY PRINCIPLES AND VALUES that are the foundation of our nation.
Go read about the factual history of our country, the US Constitution and ALL the Founding Fathers’ Charters of Liberty and Freedom from the Preamble to the Federalist Papers and then perhaps you can really understand how it our foundation and government was created after hundreds of years of observing FAILED governments.
notpilgrims So what would satisfy your secular requirements?
US CAPITOL BUILDING
- In the United States Capitol the declaration `In God We Trust’ is prominently displayed in both the United States House and Senate Chambers.
- Around the top of the walls in the House Chamber appear images of 23 great lawgivers from across the centuries, but Moses (the lawgiver, who–according to the Bible–originally received the law from God,) is the only lawgiver honored with a full face view, looking down on the proceedings of the House.
- Religious artwork is found throughout the United States Capitol, including in the Rotunda where the prayer service of Christopher Columbus, the Baptism of Pocahontas, and the prayer and Bible study of the Pilgrims are all prominently displayed.
- In the Cox Corridor of the Capitol are inscribed the words `America! God shed His grace on thee’.
- At the east Senate entrance of the Capitol are the words `Annuit Coeptis’ which is Latin for `God has favored our undertakings’.
- In 1954 a special Congressional Prayer Room was added to the Capitol with a kneeling bench, an altar, an open Bible, an inspiring stained-glass window with George Washington kneeling in prayer, the declaration of Psalm 16:1: `Preserve me, O God, for in Thee do I put my trust,’ and the phrase `This Nation Under God’ displayed above the kneeling, prayerful Washington.
- in 1864, Congress passed an act authorizing each State to display statues of 2 of its heroes in the United States Capitol, resulting in numerous statues of noted Christian clergymen and leaders at the Capitol, including Gospel ministers such as the Revs. James A. Garfield, John Peter Muhlenberg, Jonathan Trumbull, Roger Williams, Jason Lee, Marcus Whitman, and Martin Luther King Jr.; Gospel theologians such as Roger Sherman; Catholic priests such as Father Damien, Jacques Marquette, Eusebio Kino, and Junipero Serra; Catholic nuns such as Mother Joseph; and numerous other religious leaders.
- The Ten Commandments are found in many Federal buildings across Washington, DC, including in bronze in the floor of the National Archives.
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
- The Ten Commandments are found in a bronze statue of Moses in the Main Reading Room of the Library of Congress.
- In the Library of Congress, The Giant Bible of Mainz, and The Gutenberg Bible are on prominent permanent display and etched on the walls are Bible verses, including: `The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not’ (John 1:5); `Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore, get wisdom and with all thy getting, get understanding’ (Proverbs 4:7); `What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God’ (Micah 6:8); and `The heavens declare the Glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork’ (Psalm 19:1).
- The Ten Commandments are found in numerous locations at the U.S. Supreme Court, including in the frieze above the Justices, the oak door at the rear of the Chamber, the gable apex, and in dozens of locations on the bronze latticework surrounding the Supreme Court Bar seating.
- Of the 5 areas inside the Jefferson Memorial into which Jefferson’s words have been carved, 4 are God-centered, including Jefferson’s declaration that `God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever’;
- The Lincoln Memorial contains numerous acknowledgments of God and citations of Bible verses, including the declarations that `we here highly resolve that … this nation under God … shall not perish from the earth’.
- The Lincoln Memorial also reads: `The Almighty has His own purposes. `Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh’ (Matthew 18:7); `as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said `the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether’ (Psalms 19:9); `one day every valley shall be exalted and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it togetherÌ (Dr. Martin Luther KingÌs speech, based on Isaiah 40:4-5).
- The Liberty Bell was named for the Biblical inscription from Leviticus 25:10 emblazoned around it: `Proclaim liberty throughout the land, to all the inhabitants thereof’.”
- In the Washington Monument are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgements carved on memorial blocks in the walls, including the phrases: `Holiness to the Lord’ (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), `Search the Scriptures’ (John 5:39), `The memory of the just is blessed’ (Proverbs 10:7), `May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence’, and `In God We Trust’, but the Latin inscription Laus Deo meaning `Praise be to God’ is engraved on the monument’s capstone.”
“In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” — John Quincy Adams (Sixth President of the United States; Diplomat; Secretary of State; U.S. Senator; US Representative)
“The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”8 — Congress 1854
“[Governments] could not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.10. — John Dickenson (Signer of the Constitution; Governor of Pennsylvania; Governor of Deleware; General in the American Revolution)
“It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver . . . and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”23 — Samuel Huntington (Signer of the Declaration of Independence; President of Congress; Judge; Governor of Connecticut)
“I recommend a general and public return of praise and thanksgiving to Him from whose goodness these blessings descend. The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the source from which they flow.”24. — John Jay (President of Congress; Diplomat; Author of the Federalist Papers; Original Chief justice of the US Supreme Court; Governor of New York)
“[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” – John Adams (Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)
“Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.” – Fisher Ames, Framer of the First Amendment (Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” 1. — John Adams (Signer of the Declaration; Judge; Diplomat; One of the Two Signers of the Bill of Rights, Second President of the United States)
“[T]he Christian religion… is the basis, or rather the source, of all genuine freedom in government… I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence.”52. — Noah Webster (Revolutionary Soldier; Judge; Legislator; Educator; Invented Websters Dictionary)
- In 1956, Congress by law made `In God We Trust’ the National Motto, and added the phrase to American currency.
- The constitutions of each of the 50 states, either in the preamble or body, explicitly recognize or express gratitude to God.
- Declaration of Iindependence.
SPEECHES & INAUGURATIONS
- America’s first Presidential Inauguration incorporated 7 specific religious activities, including-(1) the use of the Bible to administer the oath;(2) affirming the religious nature of the oath by the adding the prayer `So help me God!’ to the oath;(3) inaugural prayers offered by the President;(4) religious content in the inaugural address;(5) civil leaders calling the people to prayer or acknowledgement of God;(6) inaugural worship services attended en masse by Congress as an official part of congressional activities; and(7) clergy-led inaugural prayers, activities which have been replicated in whole or part by every subsequent President.
- Even though Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin are typically the only signers studied today, almost half of the signers of the Declaration (24 of 56) held what today would be considered seminary or Bible school degrees. There were over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convention, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and fifty-six who signed the Declaration)
* Harvard University – Reverend John Harvard gave half his property and his entire library to start this world renowned institution. Harvard’s original motto was: “For Christ and the Church.” The goal of a Harvard education was to establish Christian principles in the minds of students according to the Word of God. In addition to ministers, Harvard also produced some of the greatest statesmen of the 1700s, such as, John Hancock, John Adams, and Samuel Adams.
* Yale University – Yale was patterned after the design of Harvard. The founders of Yale were authorized to create an institution where “youth may be instructed in the Arts and Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fit for employment both in the Church and Civil State.” Three Yale graduates were: the inventor Eli Whitney, the educator and author Noah Webster, and the patriot Nathan Hale who just before being hanged by the British said, “I regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.”
* Princeton University – Reverend Jonathan Dickson, Princeton’s first president, once said, “Cursed be all learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.” Established during the First Great Awakening, the college was a direct result of spiritual revival and a recommitment of the early colonies to further a degree of excellence in education. Later, under President Jonathan Edwards, the school took on a missionary zeal to minister to the American Indians. Early Princeton graduates included James Madison, Aaron Burr and six members of he first United States Congress.
* Boston University – “Learning, Virtue, and Piety” is the motto of one of the finest of the many learning institutions in Boston. Today, Boston University is perhaps the most strategic school in the United States since it has more international students than any other University. Many of these internationals are being trained to move into positions of leadership in their native lands. A revival among international students at Boston University would impact the entire world.
* Amherst College – Amherst was founded and was maintained for many years with the aim of educating young men to serve God. The school’s Latin motto, “Terras Irradient,” is an allusion to Isaiah 6:3: “The whole earth is full of His glory.” In the early years of the school frequent and powerful revivals often resulted in the salvation of many young men. Graduates of Amherst College have included the radical social reformer Henry Ward Beecher (brother of Harriet Beecher Stowe), and Daniel W. Poor, the pioneer missionary to Ceylon.
* Smith College – Founded in Northampton, Massachusetts, Smith College has always been considered to be one of the finest women’s colleges in the world. Smith is located in an geographical area that has traditionally been associated with powerful outpourings of the Holy Spirit. The First Great Awakening began in the 1730s in a Northampton Congregational church pastored by Jonathan Edwards. The western part of Massachusetts was also the site of many revivals in the Second Great Awakening.
* Mount Holyoke College – Mary Lyon founded Mount Holyoke seminary for women in South Hadley, Massachusetts. This institution was among the first of its kind and was a product of the social reforms of the Second Great Awakening. Mary Lyon sought to promote to the rights of women and personally trained more than fifty women who later became foreign missionaries.
* Wellesley College – One of the most beautiful of the American colleges founded in the 1800s, Wellesley was patterned after the system of education at Mount Holyoke. Wellesley College’s charter declared its foundation to be “distinctly and positively Christian in its influence, discipline and instruction.” From its beginning, Wellesley has enrolled many international students.
* Brown University – First chartered as Rhode Island College, Baptist followers of Roger Williams founded the school “to train ministers and educate youth properly in the Christian faith.” The rapid increase of Baptists in New England in the 1700s led to the need for a better educated leadership. Rhode Island College was the first of many educational projects begun in the American colonies as a result of the First Great Awakening.
* Dartmouth University – Yale graduate Eleazar Wheelock first founded Dartmouth as Moor’s Indian Charity School in Columbia, Connecticut, but it was later mover to Hanover, New Hampshire. In the beginning, it was a reflection of the early settler’s zeal to share the Christian faith with the Indians and to educate young Native Americans in the spirit of Jesus and the Bible. The school’s motto, “A Voice of One Crying in the Wilderness”, describes the prophetic calling which is firmly ingrained in Dartmouth’s foundation.
* Columbia University – This college was first founded by a royal charter in the vestry room of the Trinity Church schoolhouse in New York City. First known as King’s College, this school was a center of non-denominational learning. The first advertisement of the college disclaims any intention of imposing “on the scholars the peculiar Tenants of any particular Sect of Christians; but to inculcate upon their tender minds, the great Principles of Christianity and Morality, in which true Christians of each Denomination are generally agreed.” Some early Columbia graduates include Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Governor Morris.
* Cornell University – A private university and member of the Ivy League, Cornell was originally founded as New York State’s land grant college under the Morill Act. In the early 1800s, the central portion of New York State was referred to as the “burnt-over district” due to the many revivals that occurred in this area. Charles G. Finney based his ministry in New York State during the early years of the Second Great Awakening.
* University of Pennsylvania – Originally founded by Quakers under the Morill Act, the University of Pennsylvania is primarily a residential campus located in the heart of central Philadelphia. Known as the “City of Brotherly Love,” Philadelphia is one of the cradles of liberty and was greatly affected by George Whitefield’s ministry during the First Great Awakening in the early 1700s. The University of Pennsylvania stands today as a key to unlocking awakening in our nation. The university has “recognized that the future of the city and its own future are one and the same.”
- Pennsylvania Hospital - Benjamin Franklin founded America’s first hospital, he chose the Bible’s story of the Good Samaritan for its logo, with the passage from Luke 10:35 beneath: “Take care of him and I will repay thee.” Significantly, it was Jesus Who not only taught that it was proper to help the hurt (Luke 10:25-37) but He also taught that it was proper to feed the hungry, befriend the stranger, clothe the needy, visit the bedridden, and support the imprisoned (Matthew 25:34-40) – and to do so for strangers (Luke 10:27-37) as well as for enemies (Matthew 9:35-39). His teachings provide the true standard for charitable relief and civil benevolence.
I mean how much evidence is enough for someone who refuses to acknowledge it? How do you convince someone who doesn’t want to be convinced?
stage9 I wish all your fine posts here were mandatory reading, study and memorizing BEFORE anyone could get elected POTUS.
Naturally, comrade O would have choked on the words, but at least when he was lying to us and the world we are not a Christian nation somewhere in his pea brain he would know it wasn’t true.
stage9 That was a righteous clobberation, that was.
K-Bob stage9 First Amendment. Clobbered.
notpilgrims K-Bob stage9 What does that mean?
stage9 notpilgrims What would satisfy my argument is the Constitution and such–the law of the land. It says we have no government religion and prevents the establishment of one. So we aren’t a Christian Nation in the same way that Iran is a Muslim Nation.
notpilgrims No one has ever written that sort of comment before.
Well, I mean since yesterday.
There’s a commercial on TV for Samuel Adams beer featuring a Black guy (who bears a resemblance to Dr. Marc Lamont Hill). He goes on to quote the Declaration of Independence, to sell the beer with,
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness”.
But… the words “by their Creator” are some how missing from his quote. ;-)
tinlizzieowner I’m reading McCullough’s John Adams and there is so far little mention of Samuel and none of his beer. I’m thinking it didn’t play a big part in The Revolution.
Dr. Strangelove tinlizzieowner LOL!
Dr. Strangelove tinlizzieowner
I haven’t had a drink in 42 years. I couldn’t care less what the name of the beer is the Black guy was pushing. They can call it Barney Frank Beer for all I care.
But if he’s going to quote the Declaration of Independence to tell me how ‘patriotic’ it is to drink the krap he’s peddling, he has no more ‘right’ to alter the words of the Declaration of Independence than ‘Lady Gag-Me’ has to change the words in the National Anthem to suit ‘her’ agenda. (you’ve heard about that one, haven’t you?)
tinlizzieowner Dr. Strangelove Lady Gag-Me??? Dig it! Or, Laddie GagaMaggot?
doofuschmartz tinlizzieowner Dr. Strangelove
Lady Gaga amends national anthem: ‘Land of the free, and the home for the gay’.
tinlizzieowner doofuschmartz Dr. Strangelove Poor Lady Gagme…had to cancel her VERY LUCRATIVE tour to recover from hip surgery. Reports are that she may have SLE, or possibly MS. She is also being sued by a French actress/musician named Orlan who claims that Gagme aped her style and employs similar conceptual stage references. She has been slammed repeatedly by a host of other celebrities for her hypocrisy, and now…Cameron Diaz is moving in on her main squeeze…sad…it’s not nice to mock God or bite the extremely generous hand that feeds you, Stefani, Gagme…
tinlizzieowner doofuschmartz Dr. Strangelove you guys are quacking me up.
You’re absolutely correct. According to Burns,
“Scotland, my auld, respected mither!
Tho’ whiles ye moistify your leather,
Till, whare ye sit on craps o’ heather,
Ye tine your dam;
Freedom an’ whisky gang thegither!
Take aff your dram!”
So it had to be whiskey, then.
tinlizzieowner I guess they probably sell more beer to atheists, agnostics, and liberals that way?
You mean like college students? The ‘useful idiots’ that wouldn’t know the Constitution from a condom, in the first place?
“One nation under God”. What a novel idea.
Oh no!!! Don’t let Walid Shoebat find out that the painting of Washington praying was painted by a Mormon.
Rushlimbang The original wasn’t.
A lot of artists have painted this scene since…
stage9 Rushlimbang interesting pictures.
Take off the white hood – you’ll see better.
A lovely painting does not excuse Mormon theology and make it less unbiblical. Mormonism is an erroneous outlier group, like Mohammedanism, that has both added to and taken from the truth of Scripture and Judeo-Christianity.
Both Mormanism and Mohammedanism were perpetrated by man, not God.
I hope people are teaching their children this because I know for a fact it’s been wiped from the curriculum.
Progressives have to been desperately trying to rewrite the founding and history of our country for years. Just ask David Barton. Every time I hear someone chant ” THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE” I roll my eyes. The intentions of the Founders were very clear: Freedom OF religion, NOT Freedom from! Their intention were to protect the church from government strongholds, not the other way around. We should not have to apologize for our heritage. We should not be ashamed that the Christian church was heavily involved in building schools and churches or that prayer was a regular occurrence in the halls of Washington. The Ten Commandments are inscribed on the building of the USSC! There is so much more proof. I could go on and on. Today, I wish that the government would remove the tax exempt status for churches because of the fear and intimidation that churches experience. We need to go back to those days old when church leaders were not afraid to speak their minds: the days of the Black Robe Regiment.
ksand837 I need to update this, but I agree!! Excellent comment!
Very nice production, Duckie!
RighteousCrow_JustCaws AmericanborninCanada ksand837 Thank you RCJC! I do need to update it, trying to make all CFP stuff the same. But thank you!
AmericanborninCanada RighteousCrow_JustCaws ksand837 If I may call you Duckie, you may call me Crow.
Did you make this video? It gives me chills!
What Johnson did is in direct violation of the First Amendment.
Keyes AmericanborninCanada ksand837 Yes Keyes I did, one of the first ones I made. Thank you! Yes, that Johnson crap has been a burr under my feathers for a long time and it needs to be abolished along with the IRS!
AmericanborninCanada Keyes ksand837
AmericanborninCanada Keyes ksand837
Here’s a good video I just got that fits this thread.
Scoop should post it.
Didn’t know that about Johnson. Thank you.
I think you mean “REgressives”. I hate that they call themselves progessives.
Glenn Beck keeps having Penn Gillette on, who is a professed Atheist. Gillette keeps telling folks that “agnostic” is not what it is, and instead is telling folks “atheist” is what “agnostic” means. I like the guy, but he’s simply wrong.
A-Theism, like other words with the Greek prefix ‘a’ in front of it is a concept that one live “without theism” or “be against theism”. A-gnosticism is to be against, or live without “knowledge” (of something). To choose not to know.
For most of my life I was agnostic. In other words, I didn’t care one way or the other about religion, or whether God was behind it all or it was all a huge accident. I didn’t need to know, so I purposefully held no opinion. (Which by the way is in total compliance with the Scientific Principle, unlike atheism.)
Atheists butt their opinion into every discourse running. They won’t shut up about it. They are “anti” theism. They try to bring theism down everywhere they see it. And yes, Atheism is merely a strongly held belief, despite their protestations otherwise. To be agnostic is to not care about monuments, doctrine, or other things. To be Atheistic is to make it your mission to tear down such things, if they support religious belief. That requires a strong belief. One does not escape the comfort of home to tear down something about which they have no opinion.
K-Bob I gather you have strong feelings about how you define the terms “atheist” and “agnostic.” Knock yourself out. But if others define and use those terms to mean something other than what you have in mind (and, yes, they do), you’ll be hard put to understand them or communicate with them if you suppose or pretend that when they speak, they use the terms in your sense rather than theirs.
dougindeap K-Bob Congratulations. Obviously anyone can “knock themselves out” and make up their own idiosyncratic language. But if they want to declare words mean the opposite of what they mean, they can go ahead and live with the confusion they generate. If you want to join them, knock yourself out.
Doesn’t matter to me. We know who the atheists are. They’re pretty damned frank about it.
K-Bob dougindeap All I’m saying is that if someone explains that he lacks a belief in god(s), and does not have a strongly held belief there is no god, and he therefore labels himself an atheist, that’s the way it is. If you use the term differently, that does not affect or change the self-declared atheist’s beliefs (or lack thereof).
dougindeap K-Bob I’m not the one using the terms “differently.”
K-Bob dougindeap Hmmm. From here, it appears to me that two people, you and the hypothetical atheist, are using the terms differently, i.e., each is using them differently than the other. I suppose that from the center of the universe it may appear that it is only the other who uses them differently.
dougindeap K-Bob Then leave the center of whatever universe is bothering you. Here in the realm where plain English is spoken, I’m using the terms correctly. I clarified why I am doing so, which you apparently ignored.
If you simply feel a need to defend idiosyncratic language, then fine; you don’t need to keep replying to me about it. I don’t care to learn someone’s personal language map.
K-Bob It’s interesting you say anti-theism. Christopher Hitchens never described himself as an atheist. He declared himself to be anti-theist.
Las1 Yep. He said many times that catechetical instruction was “wicked”, or that many religious teachings were a wicked thing to do to children. So yes, he was definitely an anti-theist, because he felt that it was important to halt the spread of it.
K-BobLas1 I’ve always been struck by the very religious opprobrium that Hitchens constantly used… as if there were a higher moral authority upon which he was basing his outrage. Irony? I’d say so.
The latest best scientific evidence from the world of physics and, in particular, cosmology and quantum mechanics and general relativity, is that the universe did not always exist – it is not “past eternal.” It may be “future eternal” and therefore never end but it is not “past eternal” – it had a beginning and nothing we can measure existed before it.
As Billy Preston once sang ”nothing from nothing leaves nothing/you got to have something if you want to be with me” and therefore something – some being – “I AM” - which exists outside of space and time had to cause the creation of everything that exists within space and time, including space and time itself, because before there was space and time there was nothing to cause something, such as the universe, except “I AM”.
But don”t take my word for it: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/ and http://subversivethinking.blogspot.com/2012/05/cosmologists-audrey-mithani-and.html
John Craven – New Orleans
This video simplistically overstates the religiosity of the
colonists at the time of the Revolutionary War; the Great Awakening had largely
run its course a decade or two earlier.
This video also overstates the influence of religion on the
founding of the United States government.Several of the items of “evidence” it offers, indeed, are
false or misleading.
While the religious
views of various founders are subjects of some uncertainty and controversy, it
is safe to say that many founders were Christian of one sort or another and
held views such noted in the video regarding religion.In assessing the nature of our government,
though, care should be taken to distinguish between society and government and not
to make too much of various founders’ individual religious beliefs.Their individual beliefs, while informative,
are largely beside the point. Whatever their religions, they drafted a
Constitution that establishes a secular government and separates it from
religion as noted earlier. This is entirely consistent with the fact that some
founders professed their religiosity and even their desire that Christianity
remain the dominant religious influence in American society. Why? Because
religious people who would like to see their religion flourish in society may
well believe that separating religion and government will serve that end and,
thus, in founding a government they may well intend to keep it separate from
religion. It is entirely possible for thoroughly religious folk to found a
secular government and keep it separate from religion. That, indeed, is just
what the founders did.
Lest there be
any doubt on this score, note that shortly after the founding, President John
Adams (a founder) signed, with the unanimous consent of the Senate (comprised
in large measure of founders), the Treaty of Tripoli declaring, in pertinent
part, “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
founded on the Christian religion.”
The video’s claim that Jefferson sent missionaries to an
Indian tribe and built a church for it are partly false and otherwise
misleading.Jefferson signed over forty
treaties with various Indian nations.Only the one with the Kaskaskia said anything about religion; in it, the
U.S. traded various items, including $300 to help the tribe (whose members were
largely Catholic) erect a church and $100 per year for seven years to support a
priest, in exchange for nearly 9 million acres of land.The aim of the treaty was not to convert
Indians to religion, but rather merely to trade with a sovereign nation by providing
items it desired.
Jefferson did not, as Eddie Hyatt asserts in the video, sign
all presidential documents “in the year of our lord Christ.”To the contrary, the evidence is that he
never used this phrase except in one circumstance, i.e., signing passports
allowing merchant ships to enter certain ports; the passports were preprinted
with this phrase as prescribed by Holland in a 1782 treaty.
Contrary to Hyatt’s assertion, the Constitutional Convention
did not prepare the Constitution “in the context of prayer” as a
result of Ben Franklin’s motion.Indeed,
just the opposite, it undertook its daily sessions without prayer.When Franklin made the motion for prayer
Hyatt mentions, Alexander Hamilton and others objected and ultimately the
motion was dropped without a vote, and no prayers were ever held at the
convention.Franklin penned a note at
the end of his handwritten speech:”The convention, except three or four persons, thought prayers
unnecessary.”Max Farrand, ed., 1
Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, p. 452 (1911).
dougindeap LOL, that comment Adams made is taken out of context. You fail to mention that Adams also said that our Constitution will only work for moral and religious people.
Why can’t you athiests just take a chill pill and admit we were founded on Biblical principles? Are you afraid if you admit that you will have to convert or something?
Omitting the context, changing the meaning, etc. are common tactics the left uses in their efforts to revise history.
Always a Marine Keyes dougindeap Given how Hyatt and the video plainly played fast and loose with the facts, you might better aim your ire in that direction.
dougindeap Always a Marine Keyes
Nothing wrong with my aim. I scored “sharpshooter.”
Always a MarinedougindeapKeyesI questioned not your aim, but rather your choice of targets. Since you
appear eager to defend against those who would omit context,
revise history, etc., I thought for sure you would, once alerted to the
whoppers served up in this video, jump to the ready and take them on.
But . . . it seems you have other things on your mind.
dougindeap Always a Marine Keyes
Some of what you wrote was balanced, but I perceived that you have a settled view that includes biases (in my opinion), and I judged that with these there wouldn’t be the opportunity for debate – just a back and forth, and I didn’t want to start that.
Contributing to my perceptions was the unusual length and detail your response to the video that lasted no more than a few minutes and focused largely on the impact of the Awakening. Added to that was the usual citations of the Tripoli treaty and other “usual suspects” that are often used by those with an axe to grind about the faith of our fathers.
Additionally, the manner in which the importance of the founder’s faith was diminished (your personal, subjective opinion) seems counter to their world and life view. They weren’t “part time” Christians, and held different values and morals when the were at home vs. “on duty.”
I can’t agree that they wanted to keep religion separate from gov’t. I’ll say that I wholly agree with the first amendment – as it is stated, not reframed to posit a separation of church and state.
Always a MarinedougindeapKeyes
Yes, we disagree it seems. Whether the other’s views result from biases or sound study, neither of us can say with any good basis, as we know little of each other.
With respect to the separation of
church and state, while the phrase has become a lightening rod and a bother, the concept is, I think, a bedrock principle of our Constitution much like the
principles of separation of powers and checks and balances. In the
Constitution, the founders did not simply say in so many words that there
should be separation of powers and checks and balances; rather, they actually
separated the powers of government among three branches and established checks
and balances. Similarly, they did not merely say there should be separation of
church and state; rather, they actually separated them by (1) establishing a
secular government on the power of “We the people” (not a deity), (2)
saying nothing to connect that government to god(s) or religion, (3) saying
nothing to give that government power over matters of god(s) or religion, and
(4), indeed, saying nothing substantive about god(s) or religion at all except
in a provision precluding any religious test for public office.Given the norms of the day, the founders’
avoidance of any expression in the Constitution suggesting that the government
is somehow based on any religious belief was quite a remarkable and plainly
intentional choice.They later
buttressed this separation of government and religion with the First Amendment,
which constrains the government from taking steps to establish religion or
prohibit individuals from freely exercising their religions. The basic
principle, thus, rests on much more than just the First Amendment.
I offer this explanation not supposing that you’ll be convinced or aiming to start a back and forth. I just wanted to note that it’s not all about the First Amendment.
dougindeap Always a Marine Keyes
As to the differences of opinion, that’s where I’ll insist on sticking with the purposefully selected words of the founders. They chose them for specific reasons. The interpretation of “separation of church and state” abuses the principles of interpretation. As such it conveys a meaning that the founders didn’t intend.
Now, I know it all doesn’t depend on the first amendment. And, I strongly reject the idea that “religion” is to be kept out of gov’t. That’s an impossibility and never intended. The Declaration shows us that, and the development of the Constitution to develop those principles belies the separation of “religion” from gov’t.
Always a Marine dougindeap Keyes
As a lawyer, I could gas on at length about how courts interpret the Constitution. I could, as well, say much about other evidence of the founders’ intent (Madison’s Detached Memoranda may be of interest in this regard) and about the relationship of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, but mindful of going back and forth plenty more than you wanted already, I’ll spare you.
dougindeap Always a Marine Keyes
I’m aware of how many interpret the Constitution. Many have undermined it’s authority. We’ve seen shocking examples of that recently with the abominable decisions of SCOTUS with DOMA and prop 8.
Roberts also committed judicial malfeasance with his decision re. CommieCare.
KeyesdougindeapThe Treaty of Tripoli is not a “comment” by an individual founder, but rather an official
declaration of the most solemn sort by the United States government
itself.Note that the Constitution provides that
treaties, apart from the Constitution itself, are the highest law of the land. Is that the “context” you had in mind?
I am well aware of the comment by Adams that you mention and others like it, which I addressed in the third paragraph of my comment above.