BUSTED: Obama caught lying about Romney position on classroom size

Today at a campaign rally in Nevada, Obama told the audience that when Romney was told by a teacher in West Philadelphia that “having too many kids in his class made it harder for him to do his job”, that Romney simply responded that “class size don’t matter.” But as you might imagine, that’s not really what happened at all:

Romney was simply making the case that classroom size, within certain limits, isn’t the driving factor in performance. That more important than classroom size is resources, discipline, and parental involvement.

But nowhere in this clip did Romney say anything even close to “class size don’t matter.” And he also used good grammar to boot.

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175 thoughts on “BUSTED: Obama caught lying about Romney position on classroom size

  1. Personal responsibility is the issue and neither candidate is going to have the balls to say it outright. If your kid is an ignorant, disrespectful little shit, who’s fault is that. Romney?
    Should the government come to your home to discipline your child? Will your child learn from a teacher they see for an hour a day, or mirror your actions? Who wins the election isn’t the issue. I’ve met plenty of children of a single parent that are respectful and do very well in school. What you teach your child is the most important thing. Will they learn responsibility, compassion, hard work, and perseverance from you or will you teach your child to sit on their ass all day checking your Facebook and playing Angry Birds?

  2. These are by no means, by the outer stretch, fueled by the most fertile imagination, ginned up by optimism, total denial of math, The Ones We’ve Been Waiting For.

  3. well, then I guess both sides are “even-steven” now, considering how drastically misquoted of context Pres. Obama was when they GOP came up with the sound bite: “you didn’t build that”

    1. I’ve heard it in the full context. It doesn’t improve. It still means the same thing it means as a soundbite. It’s the classic Marxist ideology that the masses create all the wealth and the successful people steal it. The oppressed and the oppressors, center of his worldview. Except for his multimillionaire self, of course. And of course the millionaire and billionaire socialists he hangs out with.

  4. What? Are you calling the President of the United States a liar? How can that be? Hasn’t he fixed the economy, brought the diverse races and socio-economic classes together and lowered sea levels, just like he promised?

  5. And, having taught for about 25 years (some part-time), I have to say that, given good teachers, the single most important thing is to have a GOOD administration, that focuses on discipline, order, and managing the physical environment, text availability, minimized bureaucratic BS, and keeping an eye on the people – making sure the slackers do their job, supporting those that DO their job, and making sure no “funny business” takes place.

  6. Some numbers to think about…

    DOEducation – 1998-99 Public School Enrollment 46.539 Million Students
    DOEducation – 1998-99 Public School Spending $504.29 BILLION

    DOEducation – 2009-10 Public School Enrollment 49.373 Million Students
    DOEducation – 2009-10 Public School Spending $900.72 BILLION

    Has the education of our children gotten any better? Do the children receive anything they didn’t receive back in 1999? NO. Spending of Taxpayer dollars have increased by almost $400 BILLION whereas student enrollment has only increased by 3.2 Million. Where is the money going????

  7. Aw, come on! Give obama a break. His cognition skills have been totally shot by all those drugs he used!

  8. he’s right. getting the best teachers does matter. which is why romney’s idea that reducing the cost of “government workers”, as he calls them, is so detrimental.

    1. that’s not a lie. romney says class sizes don’t matter. he has reasons to believe that which are quite solid due to international studies but his belief is still “class sizes don’t matter”.

      1. Hearing problems?? Romney said, “yes, classroom size matters if you are outside the norms”! He gave an example of 5 students, which he acknowledged would be a great advantage to 50 students, which he said “is impossible size”. His main point, for those without basic cognition skills was that class size when within “normal range” (which all public schools have to be) is NOT the deciding factor on EDUCATIONAL SUCCESS.

        obama is constantly trying to confuse the less than intelligent among us. Unfortunately, it works more often than it should.

  9. Class size is only one factor in student performance, and I’ve noted this over the years with my children. One of the big factors was whether the teacher could keep the student engaged. If the student is disinterested or bored, the student had a tough time even doing the homework. It also does not help if the teacher brings politics into the classroom (you must vote for Prop XYZ so we get more money or forget this class…), or the teacher calls the student names and belittles him (you play more than one sport? How dare you? You must not be interested in academics! In my class, you can’t cheat like you can on a football field!) I think I’ve seen it all. My younger son had his best year last year, mainly because he liked the classes and the teachers were keeping him engaged. Yes, we help them as parents, but we’re not in that classroom. We count on teachers to engage students.

  10. I think we all need to be a little more understanding of poor, Mr. Obama, bless his shriveled heart.

    Of course he’s sensitive to “size” issues. And not for what most of you are thinking now, either.

    See, whenever he’s in a classroom, that massive ego of his instantly makes the place feel small and overcrowded.

  11. Give me a great teacher with no building, out in the weather and I’ll show you a better student than one who has a lazy teacher with the best school building, all the arts and crafts you can think of, and all the creature comforts money can buy. In fact, I believe the best teacher spoke out on the hilltops, 2,000 years ago and did pretty well.

    On a side note, though, are they sitting in those ‘little’ chairs my son’s kindergarten teacher used to make us sit in when we went to visit the school? Just wondering.

    1. Nukeman60. I feel as though we may be kindred spirits. My wife and I have three adult daughters and four grandchildren. Long story short, my middle daughter called to tell to us about Kyle’s first day of school and she mentioned she had to sit in a tiny chair to visit with teacher, etc. Anyway, I had just taken a big old drink of tea when I read your post and it came out my nose and all over my keyboard – what a mess, but thanks.

      1. Sorry about the keyboard. It becomes an occupational hazard when reading these posts on TRS. 🙂

  12. Great teacher and parental involvement in their child’s education … it just crazy enough it might work. Another nutty idea is for the state to stop trying to raise the kids and just teach the kids what they actually need to know … you know more crazy stuff like reading, writing, spelling and untainted American history – I know it’s a radical idea too but what say we try it?

  13. abolishing the dept of education imo be helpful in the long run. seems before 79 we had better education out there, true more parent involvement, but also less butting in from the feds. programs like race to the top, no child left behind, waste of money. take the money from dept of ed, build tech.voc schools, for 10-12 graders. are children need better educations, not all kids are college bound. they need to learn a trade, or if they are in a manufacturing state, how to operate certain equiptment.
    as for barry, no leader. no ideas. hurry up nov 6th

  14. Private schools often have much larger class sizes and better results. Why? Involved parents, better teachers not consumed with union dictates and expectations easily remedied when not met This election is about the economy and our vote on Obamacare.

    1. I had a sil who homeschooled her 3 kids, did very well, though at high school they all wanted to go to a regular high school which they did. They are bright, well mannered kids today.

  15. Is Barack Obama a Traitor to America? NO! He has worked hard to better America. eg. no more recession, constant gdp increases, market growth, etc. That is NOT being against America!

    Is Barack Obama a Marxist? NO! There is no evidence any of his policies are similar to or the same as anything in Marx’s communist manifesto.

    Is Barack Obama a Communist? NO. See the aforementioned.

    Is Barack Obama a Socialist? NO! There is no evidence any of his policies are based upon socialism.

    Is Barack Obama a fraud? Of all the 100+ Birther lawsuits that have been brought no one has proven Obama committed fraud.

    Is Barack Obama a homosexual? NO! Obama is married to a woman. That’s not homosexuality!!

    Does Barack Obama hate America? NO! If anyone hates America its Romney. He stashes his money in Foreign accounts instead of investing it back in America. Romney also put 100s of 1000s out of work while at Bain.

    that is demonstrably not true! Without a nano-second of reflection I can come up with some really whoppers from Bush II that Obama cannot touch – calling Obama the biggest liar in the history of presidency simply shows your ignorance for history or an appalling disregard for the facts!

    1. Obama did a world apology tour and bowed to foreign leaders-traitor. He also jumped off his political career in the home of a terrorist-Bill Ayers
      Obama attacks the rich and says to Joe the Plumber that he wanted to spread the wealth-Marxism.
      Obama tells businesses that they didn’t build that themselves- communist, community talk 101.
      Obama lied to his base when he said he was going to clean up wall street- not one wall street conviction by HIS DOJ. Also, more money has been given to him by Wall Street than any other president in American history.
      Obama hasn’t released his college transcripts.
      Obama did a shady land deal with Tony Rezco the felon.
      Obama is an empty suit.

    2. You are a moron – pointless to debate a proven idiot. Crawl back under your rock. You are impervious to argument and reason.

    3. Odd that a non marxist would say this:, from Dreams FROM My Father

      “To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.”

      His mentor Frank Marshall Davis was a card carrying communist…you need to dig your head out of the sand. Progressive is code for socialism and the difference between communisim and socialism is the spelling.

    4. Thanks, Barry. You can go back to bed now. You don’t have a daily briefing until 11:00 am.

      And leave the dog alone. You already had supper.

  16. What a dolt. I remember when every politician from the dog catcher to the governor always added “..and better pay for school teachers and smaller class sizes…” Those were the days before public school teachers had discerditted themselves with failure to help students, active participation in brainwashing children and communist organizing with the Unions and having sex with students.

    Even in 2010 that phony bleached republican who ran again Gerry Brown in California had radio commercials promising that she would make school teachers’ jobs better.

    This Obamaerrhoid simply has a defective brain. Years and years of marijuana– “Maui Wowie, Hawaiian Gold” followed up by more years of cocaine sucking rendered the young bastard’s brain defective.

    “Y-Y-You din’t build that! Somebody else….er uh./.made…that happen.” “57 states and I have visited them all.” “O-I-H-O!” “Resist…we…much.” Defective due to drugs? Nurture? or Nature? You decide. Stupid is as stupid does.

    The might of this nation, our wealth, our freedom and our future–in the hands of a mental defective. He can talk, we can walk he can locate a sex partner in Chicago but his thinking is muddled and circular. This jerk would bore Lenin to death.

  17. Can there be any more of a contrast between these two candidates? One expresses his ideas in clear manner that everyone can understand, is focused on the most efficient way to reach the best end result and the other who misleads us and talks down to the American people as if we’re too stupid to check him on his comments.

  18. I watched a show the other day where a 20 year old female didn’t know who invented the telephone or who invented the light bulb. Just goes to show you that it’s not class size, it’s that we have strayed from teaching the basics. It’s pretty sad when a young person comes out of school not knowing history, proper english, etc….all the things that made this country great…NO…OUR schools are to concerned with being politically correct, teaching anything BUT the english language, and there is NO discipline. Young people today are too wrapped up in themselves and what Mommy and Daddy “owe” them, that there is no sense of responsibility to learn. And I really think our teachers have given up (to a certain degree) because they have been scolded for using ANY form of discipline, and by removing THAT, the kids no longer HAVE to respect them…for there are no consequences. That’s why we see all the increase in entitlements…it is no longer taught that if you work hard, study hard, and do the right thing, then good things will happen to you…NOW it’s “what can my parents, the government, or anyone else GIVE me?” SAD…..VERY SAD

  19. I attended parochial school in the 60’s. The average class size was between 50-60 children with one teacher. Disciplinary problems were rare. Our parents would not accept disruptive behavior from their children. If you were punished in school for bad behavior you were equally punished at home. The parents were involved with their children’s education, checking homework, helping with studying, appropriate bed times, good breakfast & backing up the teacher. Not so anymore. It seems today’s parents challenge teacher authority in the classroom, their children are never in the wrong, they demand good grades even if their child did not earn them, few parents attend parent-teacher conferences any more. Also many inept teachers are on the payroll because of tenure.

  20. DavidKramer, I’m not sure which school your kids go to, but here in our small town, classes are bigger than ever; 30 or more per teacher. I am a staunch conservative, but I am less than pleased with the way public schools have been nickled and dimed to death. Cutting all the mandates for special education would be a better place to start.

    1. You are joking of course, right? This is a joke. It has to be. Nickle and diming? Here in California the teachers unions and unions in general have pretty much bankrupted our state with their disgusting pensions and massive inflation in salaries and benefits. Lousy teachers are allowed to remain in place thanks to unions and the kids suffer.

      Words fail me…….

    2. Look up the actual numbers for education before you post nextime. K?

      DOEducation – 1998-99 Public School Enrollment 46.539 Million Students
      DOEducation – 1998-99 Public School Spending $504.29 BILLION

      DOEducation – 2009-10 Public School Enrollment 49.373 Million Students
      DOEducation – 2009-10 Public School Spending $900.72 BILLION

      Has the education of our children gotten any better? Do the children receive anything they didn’t receive back in 1999? NO. Spending of Taxpayer dollars have increased by almost $400 BILLION whereas student enrollment has only increased by 3.2 Million. Where is the money going????

  21. DavidKramer, I’m not sure which school your kids go to, but here in our small town, classes are bigger than ever; 30 or more per teacher. I am a staunch conservative, but I am less than pleased with the way public schools have been nickled and dimed to death. Cutting all the mandates for special education would be a better place to start.

  22. When I was in grade school, we had close to 60 students per classroom. Each of us had individual attention from our teacher. (A teacher with minimum wage, I might add.) We also had parental guidance, not to mention the discipline that I am thankful for today. The children of today lack all 3 listed. Teacher’s want more pay and less work today. Students today have trouble learning and they only have a class of 18. I worked in a school for 5 years as an aid, and I seen it. Romney is correct, the problem isn’t the size of the class, its the teachers and the parents at fault. What would someone like Obama know about schools? He never had the experience and opportunity in an American school to even have an opinion.

  23. That’s just it. Until people wake up and realize it’s not the teachers or the schools that are the problem, we are going to continue to dumb down society. Not to say there aren’t problems in our schools, but kids don’t try to learn. No teacher can teach a kid that has no discipline at home, runs around doing anything he wants….well, just think of the movie “The Principal” (which is a true story).

    It starts at home and how kids are raised. That’s where the biggest problem is.

  24. What would ZERO know about class size??

    Was he ever in a classroom as a STUDENT?

    We’ll never know!


    We do know he was “chooming”


  25. The average classroom size in Asia is over 100 students per teacher and they have consistantly out performed American students, that whole argument is just a tired, old, strawman smoke screan for poor teachers in the US to blame anything but themselves, and that is the biggest part of the problem in American education right there. ‘Nuff said >:-(

  26. Yeah, nothing screams “me elite, you not” like using poor grammar to your audience ON PURPOSE in a disgraceful attemp to TALK their low language. It’s simultaneously racist, assuming, insulting, condescending and ever so revealing.

    ~Debt Enslaves

  27. I watched a show the other day where a 20 year old girl didn’t even know who invented the telephone or the light bulb. Just goes to show you that the quality of education has diminished, regardless of class size…It’s time we got back to the basics, and that’s what Mitt wants to do!

  28. Average classroom size in Asia is over 100 students per teacher, and they have consistantly outperformed American students for years, that whole argument is a straw man smoke screan excuse for poor teachers in the United States to blame anything but themselves.

    1. This whole conversation is for one end only, grow the number of teachers. Its NOT about kids or their education. Why should we employ more teachers when we KNOW lousy teachers are allowed to remain in situ thanks to unions. This proves the jobs of teachers are all that matters and not the education of the kids.

      Fire the lousy teachers, replace ’em with good teachers and then we can assess. Otherwise its just pouring money down into a bottomless, never-ending, public sector money-sucking pit!

  29. I’ll believe this parsing of nuance when the Right gives up it’s warped insistence that the President’s comment “you didn’t build that” referred to the business itself. Until then, the GOP has no room to parse words and say x didn’t really mean x, it meant y because of context.

    1. Hehe… he didn’t build that, or anything else… he’s a whining communist pufda that throws a baseball like a girl and constantly blames other people for his own faults. Not a good representative of the USA… oh, and he’s a communist to boot! Get a grip!

    2. Regardless of what he meant by “you didn’t build that” whether it be roads and bridges or the business itself, it’s equally ridiculous. Besides the fact that his actions have shown the disdain he has for business owners, and his words just reinforced that disdain. People who’ve worked to build something from the ground up don’t like being told they’re not as smart as they think they are, and they’re not as hard working as they think they are which he did say and it wasn’t taken out of context.

    3. I’ll tell you and bo who built the roads, the guy/gal who owns the business, the people who shop at his/her store, the people who pay….taxes, that’s who built those roads. Here’s a newsflash, the government produces nothing, creates no revenue.
      So when he INSULTS businessmen and women, when he lets them know they aren’t all that (not so smart, not so hard working), they are going to react.
      You can twist what he said to make yourself feel better about who he is, but you’re just outnumbered, not enough are as willing as you to believe your lying eyes and ears.

  30. It’s the breakdown of the family and family values. It is too many teachers in it for the wrong reasons. The schools feel it is more important to teach the children about how they are ruining the earth then reading, writing and arithmetic. They continually throw money at school and nothing ever changes.

  31. The calling card for many high-wage earners on the left is to make one feel insignificant and to think that they are less capable of achieving success as many of them have done for themselves by obFUscating the facts. Yes, busted indeed!!!

  32. Oblamer does not know how to be honest. He was raised to lie and cheat and keep the poor in Chicago poor so they would be ignorant and poor and take whatever little crumb that the democraps would give them to go to the polls and vote to remain in poverty. What a disgrace that this country elected this man. They deserve the hard times they are having now for voting for this man. I suffered greatly under the Carter administration and made a promise to myself never to vote democrap in a national election again.I had voted against Gerald Ford for pardoining Nixon which I thought was wrong. I have stuck to that promise. I remain a solid Independent that leans Libertarian.

  33. And misspells O-H-I-O. Hey Tapper, are you going to report about this and the lies he just told, or just whine that you and your friends in the lapdog circles just don’t focus on the ‘big’ issues concerning Americans? This is on par with Biden and the three letter word, ‘J-O-B-S’ line.

    Good gracious, please November, get here QUICK!!!!

  34. Notice in Libtardland, it’s never the teachers or their unions that’s at fault… No, it’s class size that’s the problem. Yeah right. Give parents vouchers. Force standard tests on all schools and take over failing schools. Promote teachers based on merit. Then you begin to fix the problems.

  35. There also is no correlation between the amount of money spent per student and the quality of the education.

    1. Nope! Look at Washington D.C.. The most spent per student, and the poorest performing schools.

    2. Right. There might even be an inverse relationship. Catholic Schools do much better than public. So does home-schooling, Protestant private schools and Charter schools.

      Facts don’t matter to unions, neither does performance.

  36. There is more critical analysis by Romney in 1 1/2 minutes here than I’ve heard from Obama in 4 years. Obama is a bum!

  37. I believe that parents are the factor that determines a child’s educational success. My wife works for a school that has to send food home with the pupils on Friday, because the students won’t get fed over the weekend if they don’t do so – a policy I don’t particularly agree with. Also, most of the children come from single parent (mother) households. Needless to say, my wife teaches at a “F” rated school. Obama is an idiot. With his rationale, we shouldn’t complain about government either, because they are the ones who are taking care of us simpleton citizens. Get the feds out of education, and you will see an instant improvement in education in America.

    1. Now tell me again how this country survived back in the days of one room schoolhouses, no teacher’s unions, and no electricity?

      I think you are right the parents, even a single Mom determines a child success. Give a kid the motivation to learn and step out of the way.

      It would seem that our kids should learn faster than ever before, given the motivation, and a computer with learning lessons installed, but must be that is not happening.

      Get the Feds out of everything except defense, the way it used to be. Let the Federal Government live off trade tariffs.

      1. Take a look at the life of Dr. Ben Carson, Neurosurgeon, and director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins.

        His Mom was a single parent and was functionally illiterate…she made he and his brother read books at least weekly and give her a report on each book they read. That’s a Mom right there. Dr Ben is a gem, a Christian, and definitely one of the truly great ones. As an aside, he is also black and an accomplished author himself.

        Yay! The left sells people short…way short. The left has no confidence in those made in the image of God, which is everyone. The right does. The right is right and the left is wrong. I cannot think of a single issue the left is right on 🙂

  38. It is not what Obama says, because that is almost always a lie, it is what he doesn’t say. The biggest problem is that in many sections of the country, the public educational systems have been turned over to labor unions. When the president of the NEA was asked why the teachers’ union did not support the best interests of the students, he replied,”when students begin paying union dues we we will begin working for the best interests of the students.” The indocrination by the labor movement of our students is rampant in our public schools in many areas of the country.

  39. Why in the heck is he even talking about class size?

    Nero is fiddling and Rome is burning.

    How is it that everyone born prior to 1990 had huge class sizes and had no problem learning?

  40. The main reason that our public schools are awful is that the unions own the Democratic party and the unions care more about their own wealth than they do about the education of our children. If we simply were able to reward great teachers and get rid of bad teachers, our schools would get better almost instantly. The other major solution is to stop implementing the policies that are destroying families – especially in urban areas.

    Not only would these solutions improve education, they would do so at a lower cost than our current system.

    1. Another reason is it doesn’t take much to get an education degree. What the colleges are churning out and calling teachers is nonsensical.

      1. This is my argument. Walter Williams has a book that explains that education majors have the lowest entrance exams and exit exams among every major at universities in the USA. Teachers should have to specialize in the subjects they teach.

        1. There are a LOT of teachers who don’t thoroughly understand the subject they are teaching. The next teacher then has to un-teach the bad habits and start on the good habits. 😛

          At the high school level, you do have to have an endorsement in the subject you teach, but in elementary school you do not. (at least in my state, which I think is pretty standard) But a lot of important learning takes place in the elementary grades (1-6). It is a real problem. I could really get on my soapbox about that.

    2. Oh yes. Just think what results we made enjoy if teachers were promoted based on merit like they would be in a non-union world. Weird huh? What if parents, all parents, could get a voucher and send their kids where they choose? Huh? What if more parents chose to home-school? E-gads!

      Our public education system sucks with a capital S. I guess they’re “Waiting For Superman”?

      If you haven’t seen that documentary, see it. It’ll bring tears to your eyes if you really care about educating our youth and don’t care about how much money unions have to shovel into democrat coffers.

    3. You should see what Jindal has done down here in Louisiana. He canned so many inept teachers; you would be proud. I know I am.

        1. Well, Louisiana is very corrupt; so, it’s coming along at snail speed. Politicians are padding their pockets and giving the vouture system a bad name. Louisiana ranks as the second worst state in education, behind Mississippi. Jindal is doing alright. My wife said that the layoffs that happened at her school whipped everyone into shape. On that note, there are huge idol signs of Obama plastered all over the “F” rated school she babysits at.

            1. I might see if I can get one for that purpose. Fishing is slow right now. I need something else to do on the weekends.

      1. I had no idea that he’s made such a difference. It’s no surprise that the MSM has kept a lid on it.

        1. You should hear all the teachers around here. They hate Jindal. For this reason alone, he’s made a great difference. But, Louisiana is as corrupt as they come. Jindal is doing some shady stuff, also.

          1. I’m sure Chris Christie and Scott Walker have to sleep with one eye open as well. The unions are just so special.

  41. “When his lips are moving, you know he is lying” is an old worn out term, but never before in our history have we had a president it fits so perfectly. Obama has proven without doubt he is incapable of telling the truth. What is terrifying is there is a sizable percentage of Americans where the truth does not seem to make a difference. Obama is going down as he should if the truth will win out. If Obama wins then this country will deserve what it gets and rock bottom will be a certainty. There are those who have to hit the wall, to know the wall even exists.

    1. Some of the brightest doctors I graduated with were home schooled. Most of them studied half as much as us public school system products, and received better grades. Good for you.

    2. “Home schooling the best and brightest of tomorrow.”

      I absolutely agree, that’s why home school too.

    3. I think home schooling is the future if parents can and want to avoid their children going thru a public school indoctrination process. Pushing this “save the earth” on the kids is terrible. It makes them fearful and future robots. I remember when I was younger they had “bomb drills.” It was terrifying. Plus the history they teach the kids today is very left slanted and simply, not the truth.

    4. I applaud homeschooling parents! However, having our youngest (now a teen) in a classroom setting has been the best option. The social interaction has been key. We have been very involved and supportive of the primary and secondary schools our kids have attended. This allows us to be more aware of possible influences/indoctrination issues and can quickly do damage control. We are fortunate to have great teachers and no issues we couldn’t handle.

  42. I see another great ad in the making. What a contrast! Liar in chief that doesn’t even speak properly, compared to Romney with a clear articulate message based upon research and facts. It would make a great ad.

    1. I liked Joe Wilson at Facebook the day after he told the truth even as the conservative media establishment tried to discipline him with words like “That’s just not the right time to do that.” and other non-sense. Someone has to be the little boy in the “Emperor’s New Clothes”, standing up and exclaiming the truth. Obama is not wearing the truth!

      Most politicians stretch the truth; Obama lies.

  43. Romney is absolutely right! Good teachers and Parent involvement are keys to good education. Although, as a homeschool mom, I love the small class size, it gives us the opportunity to think outside the box and look at different ways to gain knowledge and wisdom. The world is a classroom, we get out and explore it.

    1. Parental guidance and involvement have been replaced with I-Pod, computer and other toys that kids worry more about than learning. How many kids have two parents in the home? When I was young, you did not go outside or play until your homework was done and checked by my parents. And GOOD LORD! if you acted up at school…you might as well pitch a TENT in the woods to hide for all the trouble you were in. YOU WERE TAUGHT THE TEACHER IS OWED THE UTMOST RESPECT AT SCHOOL….today kids mouth off, show no respect and could care less BUT THAT STARTS AT HOME!! I am sorry when I was in school we had 36-38 kids in each class…yes 36 and we had a great time…and YES WE LEARNED and OBEYED!!

      So class size to me means nothing if your parents do not teach you respect and stay actively and continually involved in your learning. It is called the family!! You want to see why kids act up…LOOK AT THE ATTACK ON THE TRADITIONAL FAMILY and the destruction at home. A child miserable at home will bring to school…no matter what the class size! Mitt is totally correct and you want to address the issue of learning…start at the home and family of the child!

    1. That’s what I thought. We’ve got insane unemployment, wars around the world, a never-ending recession, and he’s talking about………class size?!?!? Dude, really?

  44. Why are class sizes so large in Universities? I had about 200 people in an organic chemistry class. Many classes were not in classrooms at all, but audi-freakin’-toriums. There will always be excuses for failure regardless. Dumb excuses too.

    It would be nice if Obama could find an excuse to utilize at least a modicum of truth when he speaks. He’s a veritable lie factory…a reincarnated Goebbels. Pinocchio on steroids.

    1. He’s a variation on Pinocchio. Instead of his nose it’s his ears that grow. He tells so many lies he needs two appendages to handle the consequences.

    2. My O-chem class was just as big; but, we lost half of them after the first test. Although, at the college level, in my opinion, you have to teach yourself. I don’t know about you, but I want to see his transcripts.

      1. I finished it even though it was tough to understand a single word he was saying. Heavy, heavy accent.

        Self-taught indeed 🙂

    3. I hear you, but in college, you are dealing with adults. (yes, young adults, but still…) In my college classes, if student acts up, there is no principal’s office, no parental phone call. I just tell them to leave. If the offense is bad enough, they leave for good (I drop them). I’m not responsible for their success or failure. But in K-12, you don’t have that luxury. You have to teach them, and if they don’t learn, it’s the teacher’s fault. (I didn’t believe that before I started teaching, but it’s true.) So a class size of 200 that will work in college just would not work in high school. The kids are not mature enough to handle it — even the good kids, I think, would have trouble with that. Plus, the amount of grading would be insane. Those classes of 200 have graduate assistants who take roll & do the grading. A high school teacher does not have that. (It would be nice, though!)

      And I agree with you about Obama. He would rather climb a tree & tell a lie than stand on the ground & tell the truth.

    4. Chemistry! Oh that class. My instructor was awesome. The first day he said that we would learn 4 times as many words than any foreign language. I did not do to well in chem or org chem. Passed, but you would not want me mixing up your facial.

  45. This classroom size bull….. is a lie. Classroom sizes have shrunken over the last 40 years yet no improvement. I wonder why that is? Yeah, we all know why, not actually teaching anything, indoctrination. Oooops, got to teach the kids about gay people in history. The insanity.

          1. I agree with you Steven, as a conservative teacher, the greatest behavioral issues I have had were kids with no dads and kids with step parents. I could care less what people outside the classroom have to say – I used to be one of those conservatives hard on teachers until I became one. It is AWFUL the way students behave. And so many parents feel guilty about not having been the ones to raise their children that they overcompensate by being in complete denial about how their children act in class. They do not even know their children; so when I get called, I hear a whole lot of how it’s my fault and how I need to be understanding or how their child “isn’t good at” blah, blah, blah. No excuses. Grace, honesty, and excellence to me can make a great classroom environment. But these kids don’t want to do the work – and their parents don’t remember (and don’t self-educate) how to help them.

            I was spanked as a kid: threatened within an inch of my life if I challenged an adult in a position of authority. I would never talk to adults. You’d think they learned the letters of the alphabet with profanity.

              1. I suppose you could take my statement and imply that I don’t challenge people in authority now, which, I confess, I didn’t clarify. I do so, now, as an adult, but do so respectfully. Because you can have a sense of right and wrong, as a child, you can frame adults choices – I thought of many adults poorly, but didn’t disrespect them.

    1. I’ve taught in the NYC public school system for 20 years. Class size most definitely matters, especially when these kids ARE unruly and in so much need of one-on-one time.

      I don’t want to hear that the teacher is to blame for discipline issues — because these are kids that get away with murder with their parents, that the system can’t do anything with for fear of litigation and who are typically bumping heads with the law. What, pray tell, can a teacher do when 10-20 students out of a class size of 36 are simply out of their minds?

      Shall we give them punishment homework? They’ll laugh. They don’t care about the regular homework.

      Shall we call their moms and dads? All too often there isn’t a dad and mom hasn’t a clue what to do. And MANY of these kids have been abandoned by BOTH parents, and are being raised by elderly grandparents who are even more incapable of dealing with them.

      So class size DOES matter. Cutting a class size to 18 from 36 absolutely transforms the energy level and tone in the room, and makes it something that the teacher can at least approach.

      If you still think classroom size is bull, kindly tell me something that is more experienced than my 20 years of teaching in a NYC public high school. Don’t talk abstractions, theories and platitudes. When a 15 year old is cursing you out in the most vile way conceivable simply because you have asked him to sit in his seat and stop screaming to everyone in the classroom (to say nothing of trying to devote him to the work), there’s little you can do. The kid knows no limits. And the fools that are egging him on, joining him and laughing with him make it all the harder.

      Because you see, I can’t just “throw him out” — because our permissive, LIBERAL system says, “Hey, you can’t do that. He has a RIGHT to an education.”

      Enough is enough. Wake up.

      1. So, by cutting class size you will no longer have those horrible students? Or is that the real problem?

        1. No, you would still have them, but it makes a difference when they don’t have such a big audience, and it also means that you can give them more attention so maybe they don’t act out as much. It depends on the student.

          I think class size is just one factor in improving education, though. Smaller class sizes will not solve all the problems, but it would alleviate some of them.

          1. “have such a big audience”??? so you think unruly kids will act up when there’s 30 kids in the class, but not 18??? what exactly is the cutoff for when unruly kids will act appropriately?

            and you really think with a class of 18, you would be able to give them more attention?? how much more exactly? 5 minutes? 20? an hour?!? really, what difference is that going to make? the fact is, teachers will always complain about class size until it’s down to a 1 to 1 ratio. then they’ll come up with some other excuse as to why kids aren’t learning.

            1. OK – calm down a little! Do you teach? I do, for the last ten years. I have taught middle school, high school, and college. You may not believe it, but it does make a difference. Teaching 36 is way different from teaching 18. Yes, they act up more when they have more buddies in the room.
              I’m not saying that a group of 18 will always be perfectly behaved, but seriously, it is easier to control 18 than it is 36.

              Say I teach a concept and give them a worksheet and start working my way around the room checking on their work. I can get around to 18 twice as fast as I can 36. And it does make a difference! It makes a difference in their behavior and in their learning. It lets them know I am interested, and it boosts their confidence if I can stop by their desk every now & then and say, “Good job!” or “You forgot the negative sign here.” I can do that better with 18 than I can with 36.

              And you’re wrong about us not wanting to teach and wanting class size down to 1. I am not making excuses for students not learning. I am actually pretty successful. At my school, the kids say, “Get in Mrs. XXX’s class because she cares if you learn it!” I do not like a class to be below 10 people because then you don’t have enough different personalities for the kids to interact with each other. I prefer 20-25. Above that, there are too many students for me to interact with them individually & I have to treat them as a group. Right now, all my upper level classes have 35 people (which is the limit at my school.)

              You can disagree with me, I guess, but you can’t convince me that I’m wrong. I know what I’m talking about. I do this every day.

              Why do you sound so hostile? I’m not trying to grind a political axe. I’m just stating my experience as a teacher. And your teaching experience is ….. ?????

              1. While I am not a 20 year teacher I did teach for about 3 years total, geometry to a class size of about 30 students in 1971 (70/30 white/black racial breakdown). No problem whatsoever. Then math for 2 years in 1988-1989 to 7th, 8th, and 9th graders, 100% black racial makeup. I really saw the difference in that timeline in 1988. Discipline was worse, less parental involvement and rampant cheating by at least 20 to 30% of the students. Class size averaged about 33 students. Honors classes were excellent and I had to really challenge the students to keep them involved. My take. Class size is important but it is not the overriding factor. However, class sizes above 30 students are problematic and borderline unworkable.

      2. How’s about you curse your damn union in the exact same manner? What have you done to limit teacher unions? What have you done to say enough is enough? I didn’t hear a single word against teacher unions exit your tilted pie-hole!

        Take some responsibility whiner. If it were all up to the parents, what the hell is the public school system there for? Parents have to unteach what kids learn there if anything. Go along to get along. You make me sick.

        P.S. Bite me.

      3. RIght…it’s discipline and parental (i.e. personal responsiblity) issues…NOT class size…fostered by the liberal mentality you mentioned. Romeny was RIGHT. Obama MISREPRESENTED. BIG surprise…NOT…

        1. How many of those “troubled kids” are from single parent households?
          Liberals took control of the public education system and they have to take the blame for the disgrace of the final product coming out of it. In fact every liberal social liberal policy has been an unmitigated disaster from it’s very inception.

          At this point in time, it will take well over a century to undo the damage and even that may be insurmountable.

          1. good point, warp.
            leftists glamorize single parents, especially feminist women; they enable the poor to accept their fate in life; and teach minorities that they are victims. and this is what you get. sadly, the only ones that will pay for this crime are the kids they pretend to want to help…

      4. I feel for you. I got out of the public school classroom because I saw where we were headed and am doing very well in the private sector. You have a terrible job; your students ARE unruly, but it is not because the classroom size is too big. There are larger issues at hand that very much have to do with children being reared in entitlement families. You can’t take “rights” away from kids who feel entitled to say whatever they want to you and disregard the authority your position should naturally afford you. You worked hard for your position, and I hope you are one of those instructors who takes his/her job very seriously. Unfortunately, your problem will never improve because of smaller classes; it will only improve when parents begin taking personal responsibility for their own children, and children learn by example to live a well-disciplined life full of respect for others. Those parents who do take their responsibility seriously are impeded by their children having to attend classes with those who don’t. It’s a huge problem that more money and smaller classes will never fix.

        1. Great response, maybe I should not have been so antagonistic in my initial comment. Problem is, we older folks, were not allowed to be that disrespectful of our teachers growing up. Now, I had a few of the teachers that I have seen on the videos lately, you know what my father said? If they give you no respect, how do they in turn expect it?

          I once had a teacher show up to the farm, he had gone in the ditch on the road just a few hundred yards from the driveway due to heavy snow, he actually had the gall to tell me to go get a tractor and pull him out. TOLD ME! I laughed at him and then he went to my father, I still remember every nuance to this day, and my father suggested he should ask me politely and see what I would do.

          There is a major problem with responsibility, respect and entitlement in this country.

      5. If you’d read Gov. Romney’s comments, I think you’d see that he is correct. I come from a family of teachers, and I asked them about this silliness.

      6. You can thank the Democrats for taking discipline out of the Schools. Kids who were disruptive in class used to get their butts beat. When that was stopped Kids knew they could do what they wanted with no consequences. Oh for the day again, when you couldn’t talk without raising your hand and you had to be quiet in class.

        1. That reminded me of a freind’s child I had in one of my math classes. The previous year when teachers were allowed corpal punishment he acted reasonably well. The next year he was truly starting to become aterror. I asked him straight out in fornt of the class why he was acting so different and awful this year. He promptly told me “because you all can’t whip us now”. I promptly told him because I personally knew his parents that I would continue to whip his behind. He believed me and started to act with sense. Later in the year he had discipline trouble in all his classes except mine.

      7. I was able to learn just fine with a sixth grade class size of 38. The other two sixth grade classes were 40 and 42. When a teacher nakes a subject interesting, you could 100 kids and they would learn.

      8. Send them home. Start by electing school boards that will allow more freedom for teachers. Get the Government out of schools.

      9. The whole problem stems from why they cut the classroom size. It’s because they refused to cut their exorbitant administrative salaries and benefits, cut the superficial fluff that is unnecessary and went straight to “let’s cut the class size, that’ll save the budget” plan. It’s always how can we help the Union and not how we can help the children.

        We saw the same thing when municipalities layed off firemen and policemen and released hardened criminals from prison as their first line of budget cutting. It’s always do the extreme thing to get people’s attention, rather than do the reasonable thing to improve the system.

      10. of course class size is a factor, and that is what I heard Romney say, but you said it yourself, lack of discipline and parental involvement and guidance are the biggest determiner if a kid will achieve in school. These are much larger social issues than class size. Perhaps the old idea of out of wedlock pregnancy being shameful was not such a bad thing or maybe handing babies money that have babies is not such a good thing. When having a baby became a way of escaping your parents house and getting paid you had to know we would end up somewhere that looks like this.

      11. Which makes the bigger difference?

        Lowering class size from 36 to 25 or firing bad teachers?

        I would guess firing bad teachers. But if you do that there is nothing keeping you from lowering class size with the savings in lower salaries. The new teachers will cost less.

        NYC is famous for never firing any teacher for any reason after all. Do you support that policy?

        Does tenure help or hurt the teaching of children?

      12. So, you’re saying that if you only have 18 kids in your class instead of 36 and the lippy kid mouths off and disrupts the class by “cursing you out in the most vile way conceivable”, then the 18 kids are getting an education where 36 wouldn’t? If there’s some logic in that, I can’t find it. Your problem isn’t class size; it’s a system which will not remove the disruptive kid from the classroom and has nothing to do with class size. Three dozen kids listening attentively can learn just as well as a dozen-and-a-half, but a class of a half-dozen can’t learn a thing if your school system tolerates those who would disrupt their learning.

        1. Reducing class size from 36 to 18 does one important thing, it doubles the number of teachers, and doubles the income of the teachers union. It also greatly increases the tax burden on the taxpayers.

          Maybe the solution would be to separate the unruly from those that want to learn, and not worry about the unruly… they won’t learn anyway. Let them have all day phy-ed.

      13. you might want to lookup “cause and effect”. class size (within reason) would *not* matter if you had well-behaved kids who wanted to learn. i highly doubt if you had a class size of 10 unruly, unwilling to learn kids you would be successful.

        so class size is NOT the issue.

      14. just doing a job for 20 years does not necessarily make you an expert. did you do it well? i can’t tell, but you sure seem to make up a lot of excuses…

        also, in my personal opinion a teacher unwilling to accept criticism that will help them to teach kids isn’t a very effective teacher. you seem to be saying you know what the answer is and it doesn’t matter what anyone else may think. you’ve got 20 years in the business so what you say goes. come to think of it, that may be why you’re having difficulty with kids… might want to mull that over

      15. @Monastery: I agree with you that the teacher is hamstrung in discipline, because parents wont’ discipline and because schools aren’t allowed to discipline. However, the class size would not be a problem if the discipline were fixed, so it’s the discipline that’s the problem here. Forget 15 year olds, I’ve got friends in the school system with tales of kindergartners cussing a teacher out and a 6 year old that tried to poison the teacher’s coffee. But it’s not the class size that needs fixing, it’s the freedom to discipline and the re-introduction of moral laws like the ten commandments that needs fixing. You could have 5 teens in your classroom and if they have absolutely no fear of consequences, you won’t be able to teach them anything. You could have 40 in your classroom and if they had been taught to behave, you could teach them anything. Reducing class size is a band-aid on the deeper problem of discipline. It’s compensating for the problem instead of trying to change the problem.

    2. People are throwing red herrings at me, I do not particularly like fish, especially red herrings. You are addressing another issue, namely parental or children’s understanding of responsibility.

      1. I hear you. First Monastery says they need to fix the problem of class size, then argues the problem is actually “our permissive, LIBERAL system”. Seems to me spending even more money to shrink class size is throwing good money after bad, until we address the real problems.

        1. It is always the same thing. I had once thought of becoming a doctor. One of the greatest things I liked about the field was triage and diagnosis, probably why I liked House so much. You have to address the underlying life threatening items first. Okay, the main problem is our society has gone away from the basic principle of responsibility. That has to be broached but then you have also that compound fracture that has to fixed as well. The cancer is there, but it can wait for the moment, you have to address the life threatening situation first.

          I use to build huge projects as a site superintendent. One of the first things I learned, you cannot sweat the small stuff. Address what can be addressed and what has to be addressed first.

    3. I know that those things are problems at some schools, but as a teacher, all I can say is that those things are not the problem in my classroom. I teach hard and I don’t indoctrinate anybody about anything. It was math bell to bell in my room when I taught high school & middle school. (I’m at college level now.)

      The fact is that it really is generally easier to teach a smaller group of kids than it is a larger group of the same type of kids. BUT… I would rather have a large group of polite, motivated students than a small group of insolent, apathetic students (regardless of intelligence). Attitude is everything, and too many parents have taught their kids that education is of no value — maybe not in those words, but they do it by example. Give me a class of students who want to learn, and I WILL teach them all the math they can handle.

      (BTW — if I could choose my own class size, about 20-25 makes a really nice, interesting class.)

      1. Motivation, is the key. Being that you are in a hard science, you have it a little easier. Not much, just a little. Now, many of the problems, IMO, is not size, or motivation, but ability.

        Okay, I took a collegiate course in Precalculus in college. Mixture of Trig and Algebra, as you know. Problem was, my high school training was insufficient to the task. I dropped the course, for grade eval, but I did not quit going. Stuck it out and ended with a 63. That grade did not effect my GPA because at that point, I was just auditing the class. After finishing the course, I then took it again, getting an A, 98 final grade.

        Now, while growing up, I did not even have to try to get good grades. The system we have is what I call the cookie cutter system. Instead of challenging the students, those that could excel are held back while those that slow up the rate of learning set the pace.

        By the way, love the slope of the line to the curve, wrote an english paper on calculus receiving an A. I described calculus as David would have seen it. David and his sling.

        1. Sooo many of my high school students didn’t want to learn math. People are conditioned to hate & fear it at an early age, but that’s another story. I never thought about having it easier. As far as motivating students, I’m used to my class being the class they hate. But If you mean that I have it easier because it’s easier to teach math, then I totally agree. I think it’s easier to teach a process or a method than it is to discuss an abstract concept. That’s why I love teaching math!

          You’re right that ability makes a huge difference, but in Algebra II, which was what I taught at the high school level, most of them could do it if they just WOULD do it. So many are too lazy to use the intelligence they do have because they don’t value math. Then they find out that lots of good careers require good math skills.

          I also agree with you that we teach the the slowest kid in the room, and I hate that. I feel obligated to try to save them ALL, and it is not possible. Even when I taught high school, we tried to get the slowest students moved out so that 1)they could succeed somewhere else and 2)the rest of the class could move on. It’s still hard to give up on a kid & make that call, though.

          I would have loved to see your paper on David & calculus. Sounds great!

          1. Okay, my favorite course in high school………….was………..history. Why? The first day of class was just a lecture on history. To this day, I still remember that lecture. He handed each book to us, while doing that, he stated, everything you learn is not the truth. It is based upon the interpretation of the truth by who is teaching you. “This book I am giving you, is not truth, is not history, but the history as those presenting it to you.” Paraphrased.

            Now, one of the things that use to freak out my workers…..I have ran my own business and have ran numerous sub contractors and their workers, is that I always talk about the process of the work. I continually talk, even when no one is listening. One brother that worked with me a lot, use to suggest to others that mainly, I was vocalizing my thought processes. To a point, he was correct, but I also did this to help those that worked with me. If they listened, they would see how you broke down logistical problems, etc. I learned that from my father, a major in the Air Force.

            I think what you need to do, not suggesting you need help, is to show to your students, what is so damn important about mathematics.

            In my business, logistics, construction, mathematics is very important, but in many other businesses or endeavors, people do not understand the importance.

            Take for instance David, he was facing a great warrior that he had no way of defeating with brute strength, yet he learned at an early age that using a sling and the law of mathematics………………………………….

            You get the idea.

            1. Yes, I try to do that every day, though the problem is not so severe in college as it is in high school. It is important to let them see that thought process. I could preach a sermon here, but I will spare you. 🙂
              Your history teacher sounds like a wise & interesting fellow.

              1. He and the math teacher in high school use to come to the farm and hunt pheasant, I would suggest that they gave my father (me) a 12 pack of beer. You know, the 70s and 80s were sooooo fun. LOL.

                I still remember those two teachers as the most important influences in my life behind my father, teachers are important, keep up the great work my friend.

      2. Of course a smaller class makes it easier…but Gov. Romneys point was it isn’t the only factor in providing quality education. Obama did what all libs do and lied about what was actually said rather than say what you seem to be saying (and not many would disagree)…smaller classes can’t hurt but that doesn’t damage the opponent, since Obama has nothing positive to run on he has to go negative.

    4. Agreed David, and, you get to hire more teachers, so more teachers in the union, which was the ultimate goal.

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