China retaliates against Trump with their own tariffs as Trump says to buy American…

Instead of making a deal with the Trump administration, China has chosen to retaliate against Trump’s $200 billion in tariffs with tariffs of their own:

FOX BUSINESS – China will hike tariffs on roughly $60 billion in U.S. imports, a retaliation against the Trump administration’s decision to increase duties on shipments of Chinese goods to America as the two nations continue discussions on a trade deal.

The new tariffs, which are poised to affect over 5,000 U.S. products, will range from 5 percent to 25 percent and take effect on June 1.

It was reported last week that Trump is threatening to impose even more tariffs on all Chinese goods to the tune of 325 billion.

This morning Trump took to Twitter to explain how the American consumer can avoid being bitten by this trade war: Buy American.



He also sends a message to President Xi:

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SkeeterN
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SkeeterN

Because China is a repressive communist country that doesn’t allow for dissent they will always have the advantage over us. Even if the tariffs hurt them more than us they will not have any dissent in their country while any pain in our own country will be met with much dissent.

ryan-o
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ryan-o

Consumers are already addicted to their cheap crap. They’d rather save a buck than protect American companies.

On the other hand, it’s really American companies that are partly responsible for this. Out of greed, they’ve allowed the Chinese to steal their IP. The chickens always come home to roost. Ask Apple.

It’s the IP theft that should have us punishing China. I don’t have all the data on our trade with them so I cant speak on that with any specificity. The IP theft, however, is well worth punishing them over.

All of this has to work, though, or Trump might be a one term president. The Chinese don’t give a rat’s a$$ about their own people or if they suffer. Hard to negotiate with psychopaths.

Don Sutherland
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Don Sutherland

In a market economy, consumers can voluntarily make the choices that best serve their needs, interests, and desires. Transactions are fully voluntary based on each consumer’s (individual or business) ability and willingness to enter into those transactions (including but not limited to their ability and willingness to pay for the goods/services).

Consumers should remain free to make the choices the best serve their needs, interests, and desires without the heavy hand of the state skewing their preferences, much less imposing substitutes onto them. Statism has proved vastly inferior to markets throughout economic history. The current protectionist approach only hurts consumers on both sides of the Pacific, not to mention consumers elsewhere who are caught in the cross fire of a needless trade war.

ryan-o
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ryan-o

No offense, but what’s that got to do with what I said? I’m mainly concerned with IP.

Don Sutherland
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Don Sutherland

I took issue with your first paragraph, namely the value judgment you rendered against consumers. The proper forums for addressing intellectual property issues are at the WTO and/or WIPO or through negotiations. Protectionism complicates things by creating a more negative environment for negotiations.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

Wow, you sound like a Conservative! So you have same thinking on healthcare and other areas as well?

You are completely correct when it comes to doing business within a country, but when trade is outside of the country, regulations must ensure those countries we are doing business with are not totalitarian states, abusing their people, stealing from American companies, antagonist to US interests and its allies and not causing unfair trade. Otherwise, you are making the argument that we should allow full trade with Venezuela, Iran and Cuba.

Don Sutherland
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Don Sutherland

U.S. interests are better served in managing a bilateral relationship in which China does not become a 21st century Cold War rival. Both countries benefit from trade. Mutual interests can mitigate the risk of such a new Cold War, even as significant issues remain to be resolved. Targeted diplomacy toward those issues including matters of territory/open passage through the South China Sea, human rights, and expanded intellectual property protection should be pursued. Protectionism and rhetoric that signals a potential “Containment” effort won’t succeed, as China has many more options available to it than the Soviet Union had. It also has a vastly more competitive economy.

C.W. Smith
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C.W. Smith

Wow, who saw that coming?

By which I, of course, mean who didn’t?

Rocket Matt
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Rocket Matt

My biggest fear is that these trade wars wipe out all the gains our economy has made and the dems win the Presidency in 2020. They are now campaigning on ending the free market.

rjp977
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rjp977

Trump isn’t exactly Mr. Free Market either

Gadbous
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Gadbous

Screw em, China has nothing I need…..

tyman
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tyman

Maybe so, but even if it’s assembled in the US, I can almost guarantee that the components come from China, etc.

Don Sutherland
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Don Sutherland

Apparently, many other Americans feel differently. Otherwise, one wouldn’t see the purchases of Chinese-made goods by Americans. Americans should remain free to choose.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

All these doomsday scenarios being posted… I’ll wait and see what the negotiations bring. Some folks here want to continue bending over to China and their currency manipulation.

tyman
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tyman

I don’t want to continue bending over to China, but I’m not going to blindly support Trump because he’s starting a trade war to fundamentally change the way it does business, all while American consumers are the ones paying for the tariffs…NOT China!

China simply will not admit they’ve committed IP theft and unfair trade practices; nor will they allow inspectors in to make sure that they are complying with a trade deal designed to keep them from continuing such practices.

NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

No one is talking about blindly supporting Trump… all I’m saying is wait and see what the negotiations will bring.

tyman
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tyman

You may not be, but I’ve basically been told that just because I’m questioning the tariffs, etc. that I’m a leftist or that I shouldn’t even post because I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

You make valid points, T. I think it’s a little bit too soon to be painting a doomsday scenario like others are doing… we have people saying the economy is already tanking, it will tank, it tanked, etc.

tyman
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tyman

As I said below, I am concerned that the media will talk down the economy in 2020…I’ve seen it happen too many times with a Republican POTUS running for re-election.

Managers, etc. hear about things in the news, and the fear mongering becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

The MSM has not been able to bring down Trump’s numbers to the low-20’s with all of their propaganda… I truly doubt they have the power they used to and the American people know they have more money in their pockets.

tyman
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tyman

Fear is a terrible thing though.

I don’t want it to happen, just something to watch for.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

For the anti-Trump crew, President Trump is the boogeyman… they have FAILED to scare his base and independents. Remember, the MSM and the political class did not create Trump; that is what drives them nuts because they cannot bring him down. He doubles down and wins most of the time. Look at the Russia ruse.

sam
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sam

Avatartyman
Pay no attention to those who can’t think beyond what they are told…..Keep posting.

AT
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AT

Does it really make a difference when we’re intentionally tanking our own economy with no effort whatsoever to slow (let alone reverse) doing so?

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

You sound like AOC and her, “we only have 12 years to live…” alarmist statement…

AT
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AT

My point is, China is ALWAYS going to be able to undercut us because our own domestic economic policies are garbage. They’ll always be able to produce cheaper, faster, and in greater quantity because we slit our own throats bogging ourselves down with anti-capitalist laws and regulations.

That plus borrowing/spending policies that will ultimately devalue the dollar and break our economic spine – and not even the spend-happy “most conservative since Reagan” LMAO clown shows ANY interest in stopping it.

So, it’s not a doomsday scenario I’m pitching – it’s a simple reality. We’ll never be able to stop China unless we pull our head out of our ass. And nobody in power is going to do that, because it’s political suicide. So. There ya go.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

I believe it has been President Trump who has cut regulations…

“they produce cheaper, faster, and in great quantity…” but the QUALITY sucks!

I’ll still wait and see what negotiations come about rather than continue bending over to the Chinese.

AT
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AT

Not any regulations that matter; not the ones that create immense artificial overhead for the producers.

tyman
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tyman

Welcome to the doomsday club…I’ve been getting clocked all day for even daring to say we should not underestimate China…even being told I shouldn’t post at all if I don’t understand the “dynamics”.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

Ciceroni ExcogitatorisCiceroni Excogitatoris You are absolutely right. It’s amazing that the deniers are still complaining when a lot of good has already come out of the trade negotiations with EU, Canada, Mexico so far. China is just playing hard ball, but they have to eventually concede if they don’t want their economy to fall apart.

sam
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sam

Isn’t NAFTA still in effect until Congress votes on the USMCA?

Sentinel
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Sentinel

I HATE this! This is killing my retirement. However, I understand what Trump is trying to do and I support it. I just don’t think tariffs is the way to go. But I’m naïve and uneducated in this respect so like most of us, I’ll have to just hold on and hope for the best. Even though it SUCKS!

tyman
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tyman

There’s a money manager on CNBC who just said this is nuts that Trump has tried to change China based on a trade policy, just turning it inside out. It is NEVER going to happen.
There is NO WAY that a trade agreement like Trump wants to make will EVER be enforced. China will NEVER allow people into the country to inspect and verify that everything is being carried out according to the deal. They are a communist country!

Trump just has such an ego that he thinks he can do the impossible.

As I said below (and was basically called a leftist for it), there is a reason other US Presidents haven’t tried to fix this issue with China.

ryan-o
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ryan-o

Then we need to quit doing business with China.

AT
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AT

Americans aren’t willing to give that up.

Hell, for all their grousing about Walmart they still keep going there. You really think they’re going to go without everything China offers at their low low prices?

kleindropper
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kleindropper

Trump has wiped me out in my after-tax broker account two years in a row now with his trade wars. I am now sidelined in cash until he is out of office, which I’m now hoping is sooner rather than later. I love what Trump is doing to the DC establishment, but when it comes to some of the more complicated matters like trade, he has shown himself to be a complete buffoon.

tyman
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tyman

All it takes is a tweet to turn it around.

Does anyone wonder if Trump or anyone he knows is making money off of all these tweets and what they do to the market? I wondered about it last year when he started tweeting about Amazon…could have made a small fortune if someone had sold Amazon shares before and bought after the tweet.

AT
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AT
Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

Yes. I guess that is where 20+ years of fleecing the US get you…

sam
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sam

ATAT
Absolutely relevant.

Karen
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Karen

I hate to say it, but I think Trump May be right on the tariffs. It definitely will cause pain for certain growers and manufacturers, BUT it is better to rip the bandage off all at once and get it over with and reset the imbalances that have been occurring for far too long. In the short term, it is painful, but in the long term it will benefit the US.

sam
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sam

AvatarKaren
In the meantime we borrow more money from China, et al to Subsidize Our farmers, steel producers, lumber producers, etc.

tyman
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tyman

And if they quit buying US Treasuries, how will we fund our government?!?

Michelle Lee
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Michelle Lee

How do you know others won’t fill the void and buy it instead? And can China itself find an adequate substitute to park their money? We need to stop being afraid of China and being subservient to them.

tyman
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tyman

If other buyers were out there, they’d be buying them.

Personally, I think China has bought US Treasuries, in part, to use as a weapon against us if needed.

China has been planning for something like this.

I’m not saying to be afraid of China, we just don’t need to pretend that “winning a trade war will be easy”.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

IF IF IF IF IF… sorry, T. I’ll wait and see what comes out of this… btw, check it out, South Korea will invest $3 billion in Lousiana. Investments like these will allow us to hit China where it hurts most…

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2019/05/10/Trump-praises-South-Korea-firm-for-3B-investment-in-Louisiana-plant/6881557501767/

Conserve 58
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Conserve 58

sam Before Trump took office Canada has been charging us approximately 225% on our agricultural goods while we are charging them 2.5% on their goods. Do you think Bill Clinton’s NAFTA agreement had something to do with that huge discrepancy? Trump did and that’s why he ended the NAFTA agreement and re-negotiated our trade agreements with Canada and Mexico. I don’t pretend to be an economist, but Trump had been saying, long before he ran for POTUS, that the United States is being unfairly taken advantage of by foreign governments and its hurting our economy while expanding theirs. IMO, most of the armchair economists in here are too short sighted to understand the long range goal of Trump’s increased tariffs. It’s easy to attack Trump for raising the tariffs, but the blame falls at the feet of Obama, the Bushes and Bill Clinton for enabling foreign interests to take advantage… Read more »

sam
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sam

Conserve 58Conserve 58

I wouldn’t believe everything you hear without doing some fact finding & NOT by media outlets or the WH. The 2 numbers you quote were for butter & cheese.

The United States had a $12.5 billion trade “surplus” with Canada in 2016, $8.4B in 2017, $7B in 2018.

Canada has historically held a trade deficit with the United States in every year since 1985 in net trade of goods, excluding services.

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/canada

AT
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AT

TRADE WAR!
TRADE WAR!
TRADE WAR!
WOOOO!!!!

Hey, let’s also spend a shitzillion borrowed dollars on an infrastructure package and waste as much as possible on a wall that will get torn down when the Democrats get back in office eventually.

WOOO MAGA!!!

Maga means derp, right?

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

It appears to at this moment, yes.

rjp977
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rjp977

Once his $2 trillion infrastructure package of shovel ready projects plus an increase in the gas tax are proposed watch all the MAGAs line up behind it.

AT
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AT

Yes, like free MAGA-branded bath salts are being handed out.

kong1967
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kong1967

China changed the terms of the deal at the last second. I think it had something to do with them removing the parts that required them to enforce the terms or something.

tyman
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tyman

Yes, and anyone who didn’t expect that was simply not paying attention.

The Chinese are prideful, and they have a lot of credibility at stake if they were to admit that they’ve done anything wrong.

That’s just not going to happen.

kong1967
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kong1967

Avatartyman I don’t know that they have to essentially admit being wrong by coming to a deal. It’s about coming to terms that both sides can agree on for business. I dunno if this is a good tactic or not. It has it’s domino effects but if it forces a better deal for us it would pay off in the future (if the tariffs are removed). Trump has had some successes with them in the past. I get nervous about him using the tactic on China but since we don’t have a choice I’m gonna sit back and give it a chance to work. If it doesn’t and there are bad adverse results….Trump won’t get another term.

tyman
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tyman

The IP theft and unfair trade practices are at the heart of the deal for Trump.
There is no way a communist country will agree to all of that.

Yes, agreeing to the enforcement terms in the document (as I understand it) would have basically admitted guilt.

If the market keeps going down like today, Trump won’t have to worry about a trade deal because the loss in wealth will truly cost him the election.

kong1967
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kong1967

Avatartyman I’m not going to make a judgement off the initial reactions on Wall Street. There’s always a reaction but then it goes back up after a day or two. Hard telling what it will do this time but I’m not going to put the cart in front of the horse.

I really don’t care about China’s pride. The idea is to pressure them into not having much of a choice. I’ve never been for tariffs in the past but China has been a bad player for a long time. I’m gonna let it ride and let Trump own what comes out of it.

Conserve 58
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Conserve 58

Avatartyman Screw their pride! They sure as heck didn’t care about our pride while they were stealing our intellectual property and undermining our economy. They didn’t care about our pride while they had a spy working for Diane Feinstein for twenty years or while they were stealing our military secrets from Hillary’s private servers.

The Chinese have done far more damage to us over the past few decades than Trump’s raising tariffs will.

kong1967
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kong1967

Conserve 58Conserve 58 Well stated.

tyman
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tyman

Um, the tariffs will be paid by American consumers.

The Chinese don’t care what you think about their pride: they only care that they aren’t forced to admit wrongdoing or comply with any protective measures to keep them from committing them in the future.

msliberty
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msliberty

From a personal viewpoint, I’m sick of China stealing US Intellectual Property! I’ve owned my own business since 1999 using all US made products. Many companies in my kind of business have had our trademark items stolen, remade in China & sold for just a fraction of what we sell the product for. Ebay is a terrible avenue by which they sell our US products – stolen! Ebay also makes it long & complicated to fight this or have the trademark items removed. I stopped going that route & email them directly from the auction telling them that I am the rightful copyright holder of what they are selling and tell them to remove the item from all auctions & cease & desist from continuing to sell them. So far, it has worked but it is really like playing a game of whack a mole! They just open up another… Read more »

sam
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sam

mslibertymsliberty
Do you have a suggestion on how to stop the IP theft ms?

msliberty
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msliberty

Avatarsam – No sam, I really do not. Punishment may be a deterrent if you can pinpoint the source of the theft, but it’s very difficult to track thieves. They always find another avenue.

tyman
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tyman

It also depends on admission of guilt.

Seriously, if a world court would force China to pay for what they’ve done, wouldn’t that have happened by now?

msliberty
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msliberty

Avatartyman For businesses such as mine, there doesn’t need to be any admission of guilt as it’s black & white proof.

I don’t know how we can make China pay for what they’ve done, but we definitely NEED to protect & enforce what they sell here in the USA & it cannot be stolen. I’m not sure how it gets enforced, but we really need to doing something now.

sam
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sam

mslibertymsliberty
Thanks ms. I have no knowledge on this subject & appreciate your input.

msliberty
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msliberty

Avatarsam – One thing that would stop this as far as what I deal with, is venues like ebay, etsy & others, MUST be forced to put in place a penalty/removal for selling stolen IP. I think there could be a legal solution put into the user agreement. The thing is, it is so expensive & time consuming for smaller businesses to pursue that most will not.

I’m very good at threatening them though wink

sam
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sam

mslibertymsliberty
I agree, no small business has the power, influence, money to tackle this.

Lol, yes you are…keep up the good work!

sam
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sam

Hmmmm, 50 tweets telling us “negotiations” were going very, very well….yeah, ok.

Of course never having to supply “any” details of the negotiations is a bonus. What exactly did China back out on? Do we ever get any details or just blindly accept?

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

How dare you question Dear Leader! wink

tyman
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tyman

Apparently, they backtracked on the enforcement.

As I’ve said over and over, China will NEVER admit they’ve done anything wrong in terms of IP theft or unfair trade practices!

If they capitulate, that is an admission, and they just won’t / can’t do that.

sam
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sam

Avatartyman
But who supplied the info re “enforcement” & what was it about or was it just one of the admins vague statements again.

Your statement below about Trump at his rallies & people cheering without knowing diddly squat, sums up what is happening with supporters. It’s actually quite scary that no one questions him (from our side) about details.

tyman
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tyman

As I understand it (I keep CNBC on all day, every day), I believe there were 50 pages of the 150 pages that the Chinese changed AFTER they had seemingly agreed. Someone theorized that this backtrack was because Trump has been blustering about the Fed cutting rates by 1%, and the Chinese took that as possible softness in our economy, giving them more leverage. That may be true, but we called for them to change Chinese law for the deal to be enforced. I believe that’s some of what Larry Kudlow said yesterday on Fox. Again, the Chinese would lose so much credibility globally if they were to admit any wrongdoing, and that’s what agreeing to those enforcement stipulations would imply. Yes, it is very scary when all he has to say is something for effect at a rally, and people believe it, and anyone who dares question it is… Read more »

sam
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sam

Avatartyman

I 100% agree with you. I’m glad some of us still question.

Michelle Lee
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Michelle Lee

Saving face is a big thing in Chinese culture.

kong1967
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kong1967

Avatarsam They were until China reneged and removed parts of the deal that had something to do with them enforcing the terms. I caught it by drive-by on the news. Not sure of the details but it had something to do with that.

sam
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sam

kong1967kong1967
Ok, I get your point “news”, BUT how reliable is the media? And where did they get their info…someone just threw it out there?

I prefer an official WH statement, at least that’s in writing & not heresay.

kong1967
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kong1967

Avatarsam How reliable is the media? I suppose about as reliable as an 1843 Porshe without any oil.

I don’t know where they got it. It was on Fox and I was jumping around doing something else.

AT
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AT

It is not the place of the peasantry to question the king, sam. Mind your tongue, or it’s off to the gallows.

sam
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sam

ATAT
Lol, I know. I’m amazed that the very few of us who actually do question anything are still allowed to post.

Kathleen
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Kathleen

There are plenty who question, sam, and post often. You are referring to??

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

I wonder how close the recession from this Trade War will hit in terms of the election.

tyman
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tyman

The media will create a 2020 recession…check history. When a Republican runs for re-election, recessions are almost guaranteed.

The media talks down the economy, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

It seems Trump is the one trying to create a recession this time.

tyman
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tyman

You’re not kidding! I don’t believe the Fed should have raised rates, but asking them to cut the Fed Funds rate by 1% in a booming economy is absolute nonsense!

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

The media has been trying to take down Trump since he won the election… the MSM no longer has the power they used to have prior to Trump. Trump’s election exposed the MSM.

tyman
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tyman

To who? Dems still don’t care, and Americans will care even less if the economy slows down and the markets tank.

AT
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AT

You don’t understand ty. He exposed the media. I don’t know who he exposed them to, but he did it. And for that, we should genuflect in admiration and awe.

It’s kind of like this race to the bottom he got us into now. I don’t know what we win when we get there, but I’m told its VERY important.

tyman
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tyman

Based on some comments, since I’m questioning Trump, I’m too dumb to even be posting here.

Voice of Reason
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Voice of Reason

Which was supposed to begin a year plus ago when the first round of tariffs kicked in.

How’s that prediction doing against history?

tyman
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tyman

The tariffs that were put in place are a drop in the bucket compared to what Trump announced last week.

Now, it looks like he’s waffling about the $325 billion too.

The Chinese are playing a game, and just stringing Trump along.

They can wait until 2020.

This “they have more to lose than we do” is a weak argument.
The biggest thing the Chinese have to lose is their credibility if they admit that they committed IP theft, etc.
They will NEVER do that!

sam
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sam

AvatarDinoDoc
Doesn’t matter. We were told “Trade wars are easy to win”.

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

By an idiot. heh

tyman
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tyman

Yes, by someone who had their own products made in China and yet says that China is going to pay for the tariffs.

Now I remember why I didn’t vote for him in 2016. Ugh…

kong1967
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kong1967

AvatarDinoDoc Recession? There hasn’t been a recession yet and he’s implemented tariffs before. I get disagreeing with the tactic, but that’s a little overboard.

Michelle Lee
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Michelle Lee

The tax cuts and deregulation helps to mitigate some of the negative effects of the tariffs.

nc checks and balances
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nc checks and balances

Don’t know much about international economics, but it seems to me that we have been spoiled by cheap Chinese prices for a very long time (and I have been a very willing participant, who hasn’t?). But while that’s been great for the consumer maybe it’s contributed to the loss of manufacturing jobs here in the US. Would “Made in USA” cost us more? No doubt. But maybe it’s time to grow up and face some hard truths: Maybe we should be will to pay more for our produce IF it means getting a handle on illegal immigration. And maybe paying more for “stuff” would be worth it if our economy was buzzing with innovation and worthwhile work.

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

nc checks and balancesnc checks and balances Yes…and unfortunately this trade has often been imposed on us as US companies ran to China for cheap labor, even as the Chinese stole our technology.

I really think this US-made goods don’t have to cost more. After all we wouldn’t have to add on shipping costs. For example: Even cars that are owned by Japanese, like Toyota, are manufactured here because it benefits them not to have to ship cars over.

The whole argument (no doubt made by Chamber of Commerce and others who benefit) that US good would cost too much and are inferior is a bunch of [email protected] IMHO.

sam
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sam

Does that take into account “union employees, benefits, etc”.

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

It’s mostly based on feels.

jamespubliusmadison
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jamespubliusmadison

There are right to work states.

sam
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sam

jamespubliusmadisonjamespubliusmadison
Yes, I know. To make a major decision to move back to the US long term state & federal taxes would have to be negotiated. A company isn’t going to move just because there is no union.

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

Not every industry has unions. In fact even in the industry, employees have voted down having their plant unionized. Toyota is a great example.

Conserve 58
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Conserve 58

SheerPoliticsSheerPolitics The whole issue with why American goods and services cost so much more than Chinese goods do is directly related to the cost of labor.

GM is a perfect example of the deeply corrupt AFL-CIO’s heavy handedness in contract negotiations when they coerced GM to provide unsustainably expensive employee benefits. In 2008 GM was paying over 70% of their profits on employee benefits. The domino affect was that GM raised the prices of their vehicles to recoup their losses.

In 2008, Obama took over GM and then made the unprecedented move by making the AFL-CIO share holders. Obama loved to accuse Bush and the republicans for outsourcing jobs, but the hypocrite never mentioned that GM outsourced the Cadillac and the Chevy Volt to China.

nc checks and balances
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nc checks and balances

Conserve 58Conserve 58 Labor unions, yes. A big problem. Way too much power, both private and especially public. That has to change.

jamespubliusmadison
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jamespubliusmadison

I’m not an economics expert, but why can’t all the goods made in Asia be produced in the struggling nations to our south? Maybe we wouldn’t have an illegal immigration problem if we had the same relationship with nations attempting to establish free market economies in our own hemisphere.

sam
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sam

jamespubliusmadisonjamespubliusmadison
I’m assuming when manufacturing was moved to China there’s an agreement on the length of time, taxes charged, Chinese employees required, technology rights, etc, etc.

A company doesn’t just move without major benefits to its bottom line…..and money drives everything.

nc checks and balances
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nc checks and balances

jamespubliusmadisonjamespubliusmadison That’s a great question! How come we’ve NEVER heard a discussion about it?

The Virginian
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The Virginian

I’m shocked, absolutely shocked, that China would have the audacity to retaliate against our increased tariffs (tax increase on the American consumer) on their goods. How can this be? //sarc.

David Jenson
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David Jenson

Maybe I’m a grammar Nazi but the president of the United States should know the difference between there, their, and they’re.

nc checks and balances
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nc checks and balances

Sometimes it’s an autocorrect problem. Happens to me all the time.

David Jenson
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David Jenson

Perhaps, however, it’s still no excuse for an official message to the American people from the highest office in the land. I have the same issues with autocorrect and its maddening. He has handlers who should be formulating these messages

nc checks and balances
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nc checks and balances

I’m a proofreader, I get your point. But I can’t get too worked up this in the grand scheme of things.

DinoDoc
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DinoDoc

It’s Trump. Just be glad that he can semi speak the language at this point.

Conserve 58
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Conserve 58

@David Jenson, Meh. It’s annoying, especially coming from the POTUS, but it’s part of our techno crazy culture. The advent of computers, cell phones and digital tablets along with texting, instant messaging and social media has had a negative cause and affect on people’s use of grammar. Have you been reading what so many of the ‘professional’ journalists are putting out?

Karen
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Karen

That doesn’t bother me nearly as much as 99% of politicians saying we are a Democracy. I want to scream out loud every time. WE ARE A REPUBLIC, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Rant over.

DemocratsRFubar
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DemocratsRFubar

I believe it is usually the donks calling us a democracy.

bigsir74
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bigsir74

Karen I am still wondering why Mexico is known as the Government of the Republic, then why do they illegally cross the Border to get here then illegally vote Democrat.

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

Trade is good when it’s FAIR. Trade with China hasn’t been fair. They flood our market (after stealing our technology) with their goods while restricting their markets from our goods. They also manipulate their currency.

This is going to hurt the Chinese more than us if we’re rational. They need our trade more than we need them! Consumers will look for other items to buy. Our economy is strong–this is the time to do this.

In all things, follow the money. Politicians are receiving donations from shell groups who are funneling Chinese monies or who want to promote Chinese trade for their own benefit. These politicians are looking out for their interest, not ours.

Texas Chris
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Texas Chris

Bad Trump.

All tariffs do is raise the price of goods on Americans. We can’t claim to be free trade and like tariffs.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

Texas ChrisTexas Chris that’s a nice cliché, but it’s not taking into consideration all the aspects of the China-US trade dynamics. It’s like saying wars hurt Americans. We can’t claim to be for peace and yet engage in war. Ignoring all the losses we have with China if nothing is done, the mere fact that we are in a trade war with Communist China–I can live with that.

tyman
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tyman

Please explain those dynamics. I guess those dynamics are why Trump decided to have his own products made in China.

Tariffs are liberal policies since tariffs are taxes.

Larry Kudlow admitted that Americans will pay the tariffs.

This is one of my problems with Trump…he brags at rallies, and people cheer not knowing that what they’re cheering about will actually hurt them.

iidvbii
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iidvbii

Raising prices on countries using unfair trade practices to remove their competitive edge in our markets is hardly “Liberal Policy”… Frankly if you don’t understand the “dynamics” of this conflict by now you shouldn’t be commenting at all….

tyman
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tyman

Yes, tariffs are a liberal policy. They are taxes that Americans will pay. We’re not raising prices on the Chinese! The tariffs are going to be paid by importers, who will pass the costs onto American consumers. How is that hard to understand?

There’s no need to be ugly; even if I was an all out liberal, I have every right to post…what dynamics do you think I don’t get? As I responded to Abe, I guess those dynamics have something to do with why Trump and Melania had their goods made in China.

Maybe you’re the one who shouldn’t be commenting…

I’m simply saying the Chinese should not be underestimated and Trump should not be hailed as the all knowing deal master…what in the world is wrong with that?

Karen
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Karen

Or maybe they know it will hurt in the short run but be beneficial in the long run.

tyman
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tyman

If China isn’t actually paying the tariffs, how will it be beneficial? That’s all I’m asking.

Texas Chris
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Texas Chris

All trade is beneficial to both parties. If it wasn’t, then trade wouldn’t happen. “Trade deficits” are irrelevant. You have a trade deficit with your local grocer. No problem that he doesn’t buy anything directly from you. What happens in a tariff situation is seller A and buyer B agree to trade, and entity C, the government over B, institutes a tax on the commodity. A was willing to sell. B willing to buy. Now, since C has forced B to pay a tax, B passes the cost of that tax on to his customers. Prices increase. Sure, domestic firms can now sell more of their competing goods, but the buyer is paying higher prices across the board. This is a simple lack of understanding of basic economic fundamentals: Division of labor; competitive & absolute advantage; unintended consequences. In the end, tariffs are a temporary signal to the economy. It… Read more »

sjmom
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sjmom

Actually, this puts Biden in a very precarious place since his son richly benefited from Biden’s relationship with the ChiComs. Between China and the Ukraine Joe made Hunter a very wealthy man.

Karen
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Karen

And the son of ex SOS John Kerry.

Conserve 58
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Conserve 58

sjmomsjmom I read where Biden bragged about getting the Prosecutor General fired so that it would prevent him from investigating how Biden’s son, Hunter ended up being on the board of a Ukrainian company.

Squirrelly
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Squirrelly

We’ve been lifting China up while tearing America down. I don’t know if this is the right avenue to take, and I don’t play an economist on the internet. I just know that my first statement is true.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

SquirrellySquirrelly You are absolutely correct! And unfortunately, we have a group of self-proclaimed “economic geniuses” on here who think that economic literacy means that we have to give in to any and all of China’s demands in regards to trade–no bargaining, no negotiations, just give in!

tyman
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tyman

So you think it’s just that simple?

I’ll grant that 0bama and Clinton were clueless and corrupt to allow the Chinese to dominate like they did, but Trump can’t just all of a sudden turn it around because he’s Trump.

The Chinese have been playing a very strategic game for decades, and that cannot be undone in just a few years (two terms of a US President, if Trump can survive an economic downturn because of this).

So the Chinese quit buying US Treasuries. How should Trump handle that?

At the crux of this is their IP theft and unfair trade practices, how would you get them to admit they’ve done this? BTW, they will NEVER do that! That’s why they changed the trade agreement…the US wanted assurances that this will stop.

They can’t stop something they will never admit to have done.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

Essentially, you are saying that the Chinease are smarter and more determined than us, so we should just let them continue to take advantage of us! Reread what you just wrote–it sounds so defeatist and without a care of long-term US prosperity. You should run for Congress!

tyman
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tyman

I’m not sure how you got that. No! I’m not saying anything of the sort, but I am saying that it isn’t as easy as what Trump claims it will be (seriously, how well did it work out when he kept saying over and over that Mexico would pay for the wall?). The Chinese should not be underestimated! Nothing defeatist in that! BTW, you didn’t answer any of my scenarios. If Trump doesn’t understand that American consumers are the ones paying for the tariffs, how much do you think he’s considered what would happen if the Chinese stop buying treasuries, or even sell some of them? One of the biggest parts of trade with China is IP theft. Part of me feels like that isn’t our government’s problem. If US companies wanted to do business in China, they should have given thought to that when they decided to have their… Read more »

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

So in essence, you admit China is a corrupt country, but just because you think nothing can be done about it, we should just let it go and continue status quo? That’s what I am seeing you say. It’s like saying a burglar should continue to steal from my house every week because he doesn’t admit he’s doing something wrong and I don’t want to buy a security system, so I’ll just continue to let him steal from me. First of all, there is a lot that can be done and Trump is doing exactly that. The fact that what we do effects the consumers here with slightly higher prices is really a minor thing to pay. It’s like having to pay for an alarm system to avoid theft. Keep in mind, China needs US more than US needs China, so they are very motivated to negotiate and come to… Read more »

tyman
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tyman

No…I’m just saying we need to be careful, and not just use Twitter bluster to try and bully them. The Chinese are prideful people. Your analogy of the burglar is far too simple: the burglar has your family held hostage, or he has some info to use that can drastically change your life. It makes it a little more complicated than just saying keep the burglar out. So the Chinese need us more than we need them. You don’t think they can wait for 18-20 months and make the US economy / markets suffer until a Dem is elected? As a national security issue, I agree, and it’s something that should have been addressed years ago. The Anthem security breach looks like it came from China. If US companies can’t take Chinese companies to court and come out victoriously, how can a trade deal achieve this? The Chinese will simply… Read more »

Texas Chris
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Texas Chris

All trade is mutually beneficial. If it were not, the trade wouldn’t happen.

By making trade with China more expensive, Trump hurts the lowest earners in the US. We pay the tariffs, in the form of higher prices at Walmart, not the Chinese. They just pass the extra cost on to us.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

For 20+ years China has fleeced the USA… it’s time for US companies to move out and head to Vietnam, India, and other countries who are willing to make a deal.

Btw, the Chinese are betting on Trump losing in 2020 and then they’ll have a Democrat who will continue the status quo where the US continues to bend over…

Zombiewoof
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Zombiewoof

Has John Kerry been meeting with China to tell them Trump will be a one term president like he has with Iran?

tyman
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tyman

Ciceroni, as I posted to you below, Chinese companies have already set up shop in Vietnam and Bangladesh due, in part, to rising Chinese wages.

There is just no easy way for US companies to give up a steady revenue stream to shift production.

If the economy goes, and tariffs hit swing states hard, it will be hard for Trump to win re-election.

tyman
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tyman

Trump seriously needs to stop the tweets and the rhetoric. There’s a reason other US Presidents haven’t dealt with China: once a dam is breached, it’s nearly impossible to put the water back. China will NEVER admit to any wrong doing in the realm of IP theft. If Trump thinks it’s so easy for companies to switch manufacturing to the US from China, maybe he should check the labels from his and Melania’s clothing line. (hint: they weren’t made in the US). If the economy goes, Trump’s chances for re-election get that much harder. On another note, the stock market had reached a peak when Trump started this last Sunday. If I’m a Democrat, this would make me suspicious that Trump is taking advantage of stock market volatility based on his tweets (remember, he and his “associates” know when he is going to tweet and what that will do to… Read more »

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

“There’s a reason other US Presidents haven’t dealt with China” and other reasons why they haven’t dealt with Hamas, Immigration, ISIS, regulations, EPA, government size, etc…

Yes, the reason other presidents didn’t deal with these tough issues is because they were either leftists or cowards!

rjp977
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rjp977

It takes a leftist or coward to be totally ignorant of economics, implement regressive taxes, increase the power of the federal government and to destroy major portions of the farm economy.

tyman
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tyman

I plan to vote for Trump in 2020, but regarding being totally ignorant of economics, Trump apparently doesn’t realize that Americans will be paying these tariffs, not the Chinese. Tariffs are considered very liberal trade policy…it’s completely anti-free trade.

What Trump is doing is harming farmers, and the Chinese know exactly how to retaliate in a way that will hurt his re-election chances.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

Avatarrjp977 I bet you would love watching MSNBC’s take on this. I don’t usually tune them in, but watched them over the weekend and they couldn’t trash Trump enough on China. With a straight face, one analyst/host after another claimed that Trump would destroy the US economy even though Trump has broken 50 year records on employment!!!

China is a Communist country and is NOT a friend of the USA!! People who claim to be “Conservative” somehow forget this minor fact. They are building their military on our backs while stealing our IP and national security secrets not to mention they have engaged in hacking of US computers ***FAR***more than the Russians. That alone should be enough to play tough with them on trade.

tyman
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tyman

Please tell me how Trump is playing tough with them when Americans are paying the tariffs.

How would you feel if Trump had gone full on trade war with embargoes?

I honestly don’t think Trump has thought a lot of this through. Peter Navarro is one of his biggest trade advisers and he supported Hillary in 2008, even though he claims to have converted since then…I just don’t buy that.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

What you fail to see is that American pay either way. It’s either they pay on the manufacturing side or the consumer side. Take your pick!

tyman
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tyman

So Trump handled 0bamacare well?

He thinks that because he’s Trump that he can do things others can’t. If only it were that simple.

So how would any other President have dealt with Chinese IP theft?

By the way, tariffs are usually considered very liberal trade policy because they are anti-free trade, so does that make Trump a leftist?

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

“So Trump handled 0bamacare well?”
Trump isn’t Congress–some civics lessons are in order. Plus, he did eliminate the individual mandate, so he did more than Congress ever did on Obamacare.

“So how would any other President have dealt with Chinese IP theft?”

We don’t know because they never tried!

Tariffs alone as a means to raise money are bad, but if their intent is to even the playing field or to counter existing tariffs on US or a diplomatic effort to encourage truly free trade, there is nothing wrong with them.

tyman
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tyman

So Americans pay for the tariffs…nothing wrong with that except it will slow down our economy as consumers have less disposable income.

I’m asking…how do YOU think they should have handled it?

I agree…Trump isn’t Congress. Maybe you should explain that to him.
Great, the individual mandate…so we have less young people buying insurance… makes the premiums do what?

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

So Trump handled 0bamacare well?

Avatartyman Oh look–a straw man argument…..

tyman
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tyman

Nope…sorry…if he is bold enough to make that a campaign argument like he did, as a master deal maker, he should have followed through with it.

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

Avatartyman The blame for the failure to get rid of Obamacare falls on the shoulders of Congress, especially republicans who showed that they really didn’t want to get rid of Obamacare any more than the democrats. Trump was certainly willing to sign a bill; congress didn’t deliver.

tyman
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tyman

My point is that he used bluster about it, as though he was the one who would get it done, just like having Mexico pay for the wall.

All he said during 2016 was “we’ll do great deals” over and over.

I’m simply saying that these great deals he used as campaign bluster aren’t as easy to carry out in the real world.

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

Abe LincolnAbe Lincoln And: Follow the money! Look what Biden and his son are up to. How many politicians are being paid off by the Chinese through groups who represent them or groups who gain from Chinese trade.

Abe Lincoln
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Abe Lincoln

SheerPoliticsSheerPolitics exactly right. We know that the Clintons benefitted a lot from China and it’s no wonder that Bill Clinton gave them “most favored” designation.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

Avatartyman
“There’s a reason other US Presidents haven’t dealt with China: once a dam is breached, it’s nearly impossible to put the water back.”

Of course, it’s called the Chamber of Commerce and other donors… and because they didn’t have cojones.

tyman
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tyman

If only it were that simple.

Apparently Trump thinks it is, but he wasn’t even willing to have his products made in the USA, like he is suggesting.

It’s not quite so easy.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

That was then, this is now… China’s economy will suffer more than ours. Just look at their GDP compared to ours. It’s about time someone with cojones deals with them.

tyman
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tyman

Their economy may suffer more, but they’re a communist country.

Chinese wages have been going up, so what have Chinese companies been doing? They’ve moved production to countries like Vietnam and Bangladesh, and in anticipation of the tariffs.

The drop in GDP for us is much more relative as we have a higher standard of living. Americans as a whole are much more invested in the stock market than the average Chinese.

The Chinese may not sell US Treasuries, but what if they just quit buying them?
Interest rates will shoot up.

I’ll say again: for the Chinese to capitulate means that they have to admit that they are guilty in IP theft and unfair trade practices, and they will NEVER, EVER do this!

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

We’ll just have to wait and see how this plays out… remember, China needs us more than we need them. Trade imbalance? $100 billion vs. $500 billion, see the difference?

tyman
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tyman

The Chinese government is very prideful…it is just too simple to be true that they need us more than we need them.

I know all about the trade imbalance. I repeat, it’s not that simple.

Again, what if the Chinese stop buying our Treasuries? What other country would buy them? The US is broke…at some point, if no one buys our debt, how do we finance the government. The Chinese have been buying our debt for strategic reasons.

What if they single out companies like Boeing, Apple, etc. and cause our stock market to plummet? How long will Americans want Trump to keep up what he’s doing?

Again, it isn’t that simple, and that’s a big part why other US Presidents have avoided this.

Ciceroni Excogitatoris
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Ciceroni Excogitatoris

Maybe the US needs to be very prideful as well. We are the world’s economic powerhouse… I say let’s show it for once.

Voice of Reason
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Voice of Reason

Haven’t tariffs been in place for over a year now? Economy in the dumper yet like folks like Krugman and some here at RS said? Not seeing it personally but I haven’t bought anything but a new car, a rug shampoo machine, two HD big screen TVs, two new IPhones (S’s so new to us, so they would talk to my new car) and a new Ellipsis tablet.

Sorry but I just not seeing the part of the sky that is falling.

Perhaps it’s over Jersey???

Voice of Reason
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Voice of Reason

WAY more.

The economies of much of the world are in the dumper. Except us.

Maybe they should listen to Trump more and chicken little’s like Krugman less……

Just spitballin………

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

Ciceroni ExcogitatorisCiceroni Excogitatoris And because CoC is making money off the current system, as are some politicians…follow the money.

iidvbii
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iidvbii

I think in the near term we are going to see some pain but I believe this fight is one we have to make. For 30 years through forced technology transfer, currency manipulation and out right intellectual property theft. China has been stealing our technology and undermining our economy. Now after agreeing to reforms they back out ? China is telling Trump they will not reform these policies, get over it… If we blink now we’ll never get another chance to right this relationship. China is counting on all of us to be too stupid and greedy to oppose them. I think they have underestimated the American people, but we will see.

Tracy
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Tracy

They are waiting to see if Trump gets reelected. They have an interest in the Dem winning, and will likely interfere in our elections.

iidvbii
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iidvbii

Yes, I agree. They aren’t willing to reform if they can just wait him out….

joyfulgiver
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joyfulgiver

another reason WE THE PEOPLE should be demanding VOTER ID and paper ballots. No illegals. No dead. No foreign intruders. Let’s clear the voter registration books, zero them out and every AMERICAN citizen be required to re-register if they want to vote.

Tracy
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Tracy

I dont know much about this issue ( but that never stops me from commenting silly ) but I am finding threads like this interesting.

https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1127930781911982082?s=20

Basically short term pain for fixing a huge problem.

SheerPolitics
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SheerPolitics

TracyTracy Exactly! And a great time to buy American or from other countries who aren’t manipulating their trade and currencies.

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