Levin furious at weak Republican leadership

Today an amendment to cut an additional 22 billion across-the-board failed with Majority Leader Eric Cantor and Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy siding with Democrats, along with 97 other Republicans. Levin says that this was a huge vote and can’t figure out why Republicans who say they are all about cutting can’t follow through. The excuses ranged from “across-the-board cuts are lazy members way to achieve something” to “this goes too far!”



Levin is furious:

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109 thoughts on “Levin furious at weak Republican leadership

  1. I just started listening to the video. Just barely heard a word, but I’m quite sure I’m with you, Mr. Levin!!

  2. You know what’s really outrageous about this incident? The fact that 11% of the Congressional staff budgets is 22 BILLION dollars.

    Am I understanding the issue here? This particular $22 billion involves cuts to Congressional staff budgets and other money that runs Congress, like the Capitol police?

    The Hill article I read only mentions things like that:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/145161-house-rejects-extra-22-billion-in-cuts-that-divided-republicans?page=2#comments

    I suck at math. If 22 BILLION dollars is 11%, how the hell much do they spend in total to run Congress? And how the hell would the Administration have any say in what gets cut? Wouldn’t that be unconstitutional? The Executive can’t tell the Legislative what to do, can it?

    I don’t understand why the Republicans have such a problem with this unless it takes the money out of their hands. 22 BILLION is only 11% of what they spend every year?

    I must not be getting this right.

      1. I have to be looking at it the wrong way. But I can’t find anything yet that explains what the $22B cuts in any kind of detail. Just sound bites from the Republicans who voted against it about cutting their staffs, the Capitol police, and giving control to the administration.

        It has to include some other kind of spending. There is no way it can cost that much to run Congress for a year. But you know what? 535 members with staff, plus leadership offices and their staffs, plus the electric bill? It does probably does cost $200B a year.

        1. Are you kidding me? 200 Bil to run congress!!!! Howzo? Can’t be! But you are right… the sound bite info gathering makes it really difficult to see in 3D… In other words to see the ins and outs of a particular issue. Some scion of wisdom then comes along with better information and we all end up looking like last night’s supper.

          1. Yeah, I gave up trying to figure it out. They passed the bill finally so now attention is focusing on the Senate and Obama. Since Obama already threatened to veto the $100B the Republicans promised, now the game is all over it only being $61B and how the Dems are going to get around passing that, and how Obama will explain vetoing that.

            The Dems want a government shut down because they think they can blame it on the Republicans and benefit from the bad press the Republicans will get over it.

            1. That’s how I read it too. I posted about it above with links to the actual ammendment and then the actual bill. The ammendment wanted to cut title IX of division B by 11%. Title IX is literally the appropriations for congressional expenses. There were some other things to be cut (like most of title B by 5% across the board), but the big 11% cut was to CONGRESSIONAL EXPENSES (like staff and w/e else they can dream up). They literally didn’t want to cut themselves off of being able to further drain the system.

              1. I saw a quote about that at Ace’s this morning but I didn’t know what it meant. I didn’t see your links below.

                Mind boggling, isn’t it how much Congress spends on itself? I still don’t get the whole thing about the administration having a say in what gets cut. But one thing I’ve learned from listening to Mark Levin for the last year is that I really don’t know anything about how the Constitution really works in practice.

                1. It’s the other cut that is outlined. Here, let me quote the two major sections of the ammendment.

                  “Each amount made available
                  by the following provisions of division B of
                  this Act (other than an amount required to
                  be made available by a provision of law) is
                  hereby reduced by the following percentage:
                  (1) Section 1101(a)(5) and title IX, 11 percent.
                  (2) All other provisions of such division
                  (except as provided by subsection (b)), 5.5
                  percent.”

                  That 2nd provision applies to the entirety of division B. Division B is basically all of domestic spending. Everything you can imagine from education to agriculture to congressional expenses. There were a couple of exceptions listed after, but basically a 5.5% to the rest of the division B (11% to Title IX of division B) would have been left up to the OMB to decide where and how that 5.5% would have been cut. When you read other cutting ammendments they normally say something like (cut X amount of dollars from program X). This ammendment simply said (cut this percent from somewhere in this section of the budget).

                  That said, it was the section of the budget that deals with domestic spending. Furthermore, it outlined specific areas that could not be cut. Quite frankly, I think that entire section of the budget should be slashed, so I really don’t care who picks and chooses which parts are getting cut, they just need cut.

            2. Oh, and to question, the ammendment wanted to also cut a total of 5% from the rest of division B (which is almost all of the domestic spending). So no, te 22 billion was not just coming from the expenses ran up by the members of Congress.

            3. Oh, and to question, the ammendment wanted to also cut a total of 5% from the rest of division B (which is almost all of the domestic spending). So no, te 22 billion was not just coming from the expenses ran up by the members of Congress.

  3. DT-

    “starve the government” I will not lie, that is something I have thought about for a long time (many years ago).

    With everyone else funding the government (almost unlimited source of funding) they will be able to take your property against your will, in the name of democracy- It would take all others agreeing with you. If you decide to protect your property with guns against the aggression, then it will bring forward a civil war and the government strong against the people that don’t want oppressive government.

    Basically, it instigates a civil war. Is that a means to your end?

    It would take a military that understands the difference between libertines and oppressors.

    I think this POTUS has had the effect of uniting patriots against government, but there will be many that do as they’re told. It would take very strong military leadership to side with the people and not the government.

    Anyways- for the reasons above, I think that the progression towards a libertarian society has to be gradual- I do not favor revolution because I can not, and would not hurt an aggressor, even though others think I should.

    1. Reposted from the conversation above:

      Your link is opened in a new window-

      My newest addition is at the bottom-

      1 more question that I had thought about before we started a discussion, after reading your post:

      If a person in your ideal society kills another person (and his kin) and takes his property.

      i.e.- We are neighbors, my lineage lives in my house. You attack my house, and kill me and all my family, extended included.

      The society realizes you committed a crime against me. Who brings justice against you? What is the justice? What happens to my property, which you stole, and what happens to your property after you receive justice?

      Feel free to answer in a new thread.

      1. There are multiple examples of voluntary and stateless systems of law both in history and in theory, and many which have yet to be devised. For me to decide which is best for everyone or which would work best would be to defeat the purpose of opening such systems/desires up to the marketplace of ideas.

        Celtic Ireland had a system that would respond to a situation like that probably very well. Their system of Tuatha and Brehons is personally my favorite that I’ve come across.
        The Old West had a system where I would pick somebody I trusted the judgement of, and (likely) whoever is the executor of your estate would pick someone. Those two people would then together pick an individual who’s judgement they both trust to preside over the case.
        Rural Somalia has a system known as the Xeer, which amounts to essentially Natural Law as we know it. It’s tribal law so it’s not ideal, but better than a State.
        In Iceland you could go to (I forget what they’re called so I’ll just say Chieftains) “Chieftains” as the person who would hear your disputes, should they arise.

        As for your property, that is simple, whomever your will states is should be given to, your next of kin, or if all of those are nonexistent then to whoever has the nearest legitimate claim. To use your house as an example, if you homesteaded the land your house is sitting on, and you no longer have family to assign it to or a will, since you are the first to appropriate the land, it would go back to the claims association (to borrow the Old West again). If you have no kin and no will, and you were a latecomer (not the homesteader) it would be returned to whomever you purchased your house and land from. If that person is dead it would work it’s way back. If no person with a legitimate claim to the land is alive, it would be up for sale or homesteading and registry with a claims association.

        Personally I don’t put much wait on the utilitarian focus of discussions that go “what about X good or Y service?” The Natural Rights and Natural Law case, in my opinion cut through all of that, and is illustrated by Spooner, Rothbard, Block, Long, and Hans-Herman Hoppe.

    2. I agree that if it happens, it will be gradual (how gradual is up for debate, and I don’t know), and if there is a “clash” it will be at the end in the State’s death throws or very early. If it’s in the end, it will lose. If it’s in the beginning, it will turn more people against it (look at Bahrain, Egypt, Libya, Iran, and Tunisia). Libertarian Anti-Statists are peaceful people with the caveat that we strongly advocate defense.

      There is disagreement over what means are justified, this is my personal take.

      Given the nature of the State and the people drawn to be part of it, there is likely to be a conflict. Also, given the nature of legislation and how it is enforced, an argument can be made that the State is already aggressing against us every minute of every day, and it is compounded the more we do. The fact that the State will violently act against people who assert/practice their independence and personal sovereignty is not, in my mind, an argument against my position, it is my #1 argument against the State. If a civil war did occur, we would not be the aggressors, the State would be.

      Incidentally, this is skirting the edges of why many Libertarian philosophers see Lincoln as a tyrant, despite loathing the South’s practices of slavery.
      See: Lysander Spooner

      People, in my experience, largely accept the government (even if they don’t like it) because they view it as a necessary evil that is for the most part benign. The more oppressive the government becomes over educated and independent people, the more they resist it. The more blatant the oppression becomes, the more heated that resistance becomes.
      ex. The Government raises taxes; The people lie on tax forms and find tax shelters.
      ex. The Government issues the Stamp Act and the others; The colonies revolt.

      American’s rarely have a problem with people defending themselves, and don’t have much affection for aggressors. The trick is getting people to see the State as the aggressor it truly is, with every single action it takes, and by it’s very nature. Once they see the gun pointed at them, as well as the absence of necessity for that gun, they can’t un-see it.

      The military (I would hope), being the people who are meant to protect us from external aggression (in theory) would be torn, and probably fracture to some degree if the POTUS ordered them against Americans throughout the states. New Orleans after Katrina is evidence my hopes may be in vain, though.

      The police on the other hand, are historically always the folks most uniform in their willingness to brutalize and kill the people it claims to “serve and protect.” I believe this is because their entire job is predicated is that you and I are all potential targets, and once we are it’s fair game to remind us who our political masters are.

      A civil war is not a means, in my opinion, hopefully there would not be one, but I don’t necessarily as something to avoid at all costs. It might be an inevitability regardless of what end we are moving towards, people are getting angrier the more they realize how disenfranchised they are. Once they realize how swindled they are when the inflation hits, they’ll get angry and desperate.

      I don’t regard the collapse of the state as theoretical at this point, but very likely, and my aim is to encourage people to NOT turn to H. G. Wells “man of action” to lead them, but to lead themselves.

      The author of one if those books I sent you personally was a major player in the Libertarian Party and helped found the Cato Institute, he was happy to use the political system and believed strongly in gradualism.
      http://mises.org/daily/1709

      The other author, argued for non-political non-aggressive means and called it Agorism.

      Lysander Spooner was a Natural Lawyer, and made the case that the Constitution is no contract at all, thus that secession was a right of individuals as a manifestation of their non-consent.

      I like all three, all of the above, whatever combination works. It will not work at all though without educating the people enough to WANT their own freedom. You can’t impose democracy on the Arab societies that only believe in theocracy or monarchy, and Liberty won’t stick here unless people appreciate and want it. Get them to see the State for what it is, a group of people claiming authority over your very person and using violence or the threat of it against you, and most will reject it.

      “Only a few prefer liberty, the majority seek nothing more than fair masters.” -Sallust

      “The secret to happiness is freedom. The secret to freedom is courage.” -Thucydides

      Sorry that got so wordy, wanted to try and sound as not-crazy as possible. =P Spinney, Spooner, Konkin, Walter Block, Edmund Burke, and Murray Rothbard put it much better than I do. I definitely recommend
      http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=850 by Edmund Burke
      http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp by Murray N. Rothbard
      http://jim.com/treason.htm by Lysander Spooner

        1. Responding to your bit about payments under the table in Holland: I love it! I’m not sure about the elimination of cash, isn’t the trend more to consolidate it all under one currency than to eliminate it all together.

          Even if they do eliminate it, “money” is nothing more than a largely agreed upon general means of exchange. Anything can be “money” or “cash,” whether it’s the fiat currency of our central bank, cigarettes in prison, or imported beer in a country who’s name I cant remember…

          The fun thing about Holland’s attempt to crack down on gray market exchanges is that it just drives people deeper, and possibly more people into it. The same idea is why the Laffer Curve works so well.

      1. I read the article on radical idealism by Rothbard-

        A few points:

        There is a good amount on why the “radical” side should be a priority in that it provides the motivation- It makes sense, and I don’t disagree. My issue with that is covered by a post made by las above (right under my final post in the previous thread). Basically, the point I was getting at was that if the nation is unwilling, or the movement can’t gain traction, you would be better served in attaining your goals by slowly pushing things in a direction more favorable to your ideals than moving it away. I know many see there are few differences, but that is where many Libertarians lose me. They shout for Ron Paul and threaten to vote for the other guy or not vote if they don’t get him. That is no winning strategy and actually works against your goals unless you want the eventual failure of the government. If that is the case, I do prefer that Libertarians not hide their agenda- any discussion is useless (IMO) if it’s not honest- this is not a statement targeted at you, it is an issue I’ve had with other Libertarians in other discussions.

        A long time ago I read a book that mentioned something that I think fits to this discussion- nothing ground-breaking- There should be 2 things to consider: ideology and temperament. A person can be ideologically radical, and temperamentally moderate.

        Last note on that article- It was an interesting point that maybe I can be accused of being naive and “utopian” in denying the flawed human nature that leads to an imperfect state. That same flaw in human nature can lead to corruption within any system so maybe it is just a fact that has to be taken into account and minimized rather than believe it can be completely removed from the equation. In that sense, an anarchistic system does provide the best opportunity because there is no agent of higher power than the individual, at least not officially.

        I have very little faith in man’s ability to create a system without crafting systems to take power, sanctioned or not- I think people will gravitate naturally to form systems of government unless communities can be kept small enough to handle all business from within. I am also curious to read a little about how such a “nation” would defend itself from outside threats and how it would organize for the improvement of the “nation” militarily as threats to liberty will always exist.

        1. I’m glad, and surprise, you has the time and patience to sit down through the whole 50 minutes, most friends or family lost their attention span too quickly.

          Your point is noted about temperament. I’m not a fan of a lot of Ron Paul cultists, just as I dislike any cult of personality, even Libertarian ones. I would also prefer people be honest and straightforward about their goals. Rshill and I disagree on just about everything, but at this moment he wants less government and I want less government, so we’ll start hating each other in earnest again when he’s satisfied and I want to keep going.

          I think your points about gradualism may have also been addressed in the article, his defense of radical idealism wasn’t just policy but part of the battlefield of ideas.

          The problem with a Classical Liberal/Lockean social contract like most people consider the United States and the Constitution to be an example of is that all it does is crack open the door for the Leviathan to kick open. The many other guaranteed problems and the invariable growth of the state which the Constitution never even tried to or failed from the beginning to stop are people’s criticisms.

          People can’t name a single State which hasn’t grown past it’s purported limited many times over and happily marched along towards totalitarianism. “impractical utopian” and “laissez faire conservative” are the terms to Ctrl+F in the pdf of “For a New Liberty” for a better written take on utopianism than I can provide.

          1. Dan you said…”I don’t like Ron Paul Cultists either. The problem in the GOP is not purity, it’s a lack of spine or honesty. The GOP has correctly said all the things that need to be done, but it’s leadership turns out to be just as big a group of liars as in the past.”

            I would just add… GOP purity is a problem as well. But remember, this 22 Bil failed cut was almost exclusively the old guard of the GOP with a few exceptions and of course all the Dems. This has been the problem all along… it is evident that their claims never match their actions anyway. Who knew? No one is surprised, least of all should you. Only a few new people, from my understanding anyway, voted against the cuts. So there is hope here IMO. But you are right, I hate the liars as well… but they are not all such. The new blood transfusion has yet to take effect with new transfusions to come in 2012. Like most things in life, really worthwhile things are not easy and have to be fought for. Stand with those who are facing great odds against the GOP establishment. Resist the temptation to lump them all into the same category. I’ll join you in cynicism when the lights really do go out across America. But until and if that happens these next two years are going to be long and frustrating. Hang in there.

            Anyway… I think we’ve dragged this dead dog across the carpet enough. Time to move onto a new thread.

            1. P.S. Black market, or under the table Dan it was huge. If you built a house, for example, tradesmen would try to corner new homeowners before all the work was completed. They would offer them good deals on installing cable, phone, dormers whatever. It was called “zwart”. But boy watch out if the government came and had even a suspicion that you were doing it. My former boss was almost driven into bankruptcy by threats of huge fines. They had their formulas. If you drove a certain type of truck and your claimed income didn’t support such a luxury, they would comb through everything and level an arbitrary fine. It was that horrific. It was so bad that he eventually had a mild stroke… the stress was so bad. The stroke could have been for other things, but the stress didn’t help.

              Regarding cashless, if I remember correctly, the very idea caused a stink, but remember the principle… control is the primary goal. Unless I am mistaken, cashless is not on the horizon right now… but it is only a matter of time. If it goes cashless, no more underground market. As for bartering… it’s cumbersome and annoying and the networking to make it work is easily infiltrated by an all intrusive state. So I am not sure it is any solution at all.

              1. My mistake using terms coined by Samuel Edward Konkin III, very few know him. He divided the economy (regarding legality) into Red, White, Gray, and Black markets. Gray markets were legal goods/services traded illegally (dodging taxes, etc), and black markets were illegal goods services.

                I get your point though, and I wouldn’t be surprised if an elimination of cash is a future goal no one is whispering about yet. I’m just skeptical that they could eliminate cash in the first place, or that an easily transportable form of barter wouldn’t emerge. Then you have, worldwide, the same problems with currency and fractional-reserve banking, manipulations will send false signals and cause a business cycle which will bankrupt the whole system. With the temperament of people today, if they tried to steal people’s gold like FDR, I’m half-certain there would be violence, which is better odds than I can remember or find.

  4. Ron Paul has asked his supporters to help out his Liberty PAC. In doing so we also will show him that he still has our support.

    He sent an email this that mentioned our 2008 moneybomb success. He also stated that the support to Liberty PAC may be the deciding factor on his “future plans” that could include if he will run for President again or not.

    Please join us and donate to Liberty PAC on Presidents’ Day, Monday, February 21, lets all show Ron Paul we are still here, that Liberty will prevail, and in his own words that “Freedom is popular”. He’s the only one with the balls to do the cuts that are necessary.

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=125262924213897&index=1

  5. “We The People” sent a loud and clear message in November 2010 that the will of the USA people is to CUT and REDUCE Government spending. It is a simple message, I understand it and what part of CUT and REDUCE spending does our new Republican controlled House not understand.
    Where is that Obama campaign pledge to review the Budget line by line. Just another LIE !

    http://potusbarackobama.blogspot.com/2008/11/barack-obama-prepares-to-review-budget.html

  6. “We The People” sent a loud and clear message in November 2010 that the will of the USA people is to CUT and REDUCE Government spending. It is a simple message, I understand it and what part of CUT and REDUCE spending does our new Republican controlled House not understand.
    Where is that Obama campaign pledge to review the Budget line by line. Just another LIE !

    http://potusbarackobama.blogspot.com/2008/11/barack-obama-prepares-to-review-budget.html

  7. Not really surprised about Cantor…something just seems dishonest about him.

    I’m probably going to have to watch the discussions later tonight- what a damn disappointment. If they can’t cut 22 billion, how are they going to cut the ~1.5 defecit?! Outrageous!

    1. “-“: Never seen you around here before, but assuming you are a regular user, it takes some balls to call other conservatives gutless for opining that we need someone that can win to run, while posting from a different account to avoiding using your usual user name.

  8. Mark Levin knows how political bodies get buried; he worked at Reagan’s WH. He KNOWS that this $22 Billion was big; and so were the weak-kneed Republicans that assured it’s defeat. Cantor is NO friend of the Tea Party. He voted for TARP1; AFTER voting against it. Who does that remind you of America ? Hint: he’s got a basement full of free Heinz ketchup, pickles, pickled cabbage, relish…..

  9. what about the 800 billion in bush tax cuts the gop strongarmed the obama admin. into keeping, think that might have put a dent into the national debt!

      1. Agreed… pabs5 still believes in fairy tales. US corp rates, between 35 and 40 percent including state taxes, are the highest in the world. Meanwhile, in the real world, corp tax cuts in many European countries over the last number of years have increased tax revenues… just like Art Laffer said it would.

        Ireland 12%, Poland 19%, Czech Repub. Switzerland 21%, Canada, in 2010 18% and falling to 16.5 this year. Denmark dropped theirs from 48% in 2007 to 28% in 2011. The trend is downward rates which are yielding even higher tax revenues… but Noooo! Don’t tell that to the progressives. Like pabs5, they think the Bush cuts are expenditures.. Ugh… so predictable.

  10. yu can look at cantor and tell he is a ass kisser. If somebody would say boo he would run!!!!!!!!!! I and everybody else knew they were goin to wuss out!!!!!! They can go too!! Just not soon enough!!!!!! Next time just put a Joe the plummer in and Jack the carpenter and maybe something will get done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  11. yu can look at cantor and tell he is a ass kisser. If somebody would say boo he would run!!!!!!!!!! I and everybody else knew they were goin to wuss out!!!!!! They can go too!! Just not soon enough!!!!!! Next time just put a Joe the plummer in and Jack the carpenter and maybe something will get done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Obamacare is just for the show; to prove to the American people that they are holding up to their promises to repeal it! The real test is when they have to cut down spending, that’s the real deal but they are backing off of it! So that tells you a bit about all the things are just for show! Theoretically, they are with the people but in effect, they are not going to change their ways~ And Dan Lundgren out there who is calling the move “lazy”…

  12. And there is some speculation (would like if someone can verify this) that the extra 22 billion would have put the power in Obama’s hands to pick and choose which 22 billion he wants to cut. That would certainly make me stop and think for a minute…

  13. Another thing. Who cares if Obama vetoes it. The blood will be on his hands when the dollar crashes. These bastards, and I mean on both sides of the aisle, need to be made an example of. Get rid of them!

    1. Are you involved in local political party organizing, vetting, and nominating ? Something tells me NO. Get rid of them; now, that’s mature, constructive, and effective change. Get involved, stop b*tching…..

  14. Come 2012 get them out and replace them with true TEA PARTY conservatives. That is it! Get em out! Enough is this crap!

    1. The “Tea Party” label is dead after it took one little scrap with the establishment to topple over something as straightforward as the Patriot Act.

      The voted for it, after they voted against it. Sounds like Kerry, and Bachmann is one of the people who voted for it. The “Tea Party” folks thought a lot of the batch they just sent in were the real deal “true conservatives.” How’s that workin’ out?

      1. Rand Paul is the definition of Tea Party (and I believe has published a new book about the Tea Party…). He’s leading the charge and should be an example to many of the other Republicans.

        1. That’s 1. That’s a pretty crappy batting average.

          It will only be another 600 years until the Senate is taken over with Rand Pauls at that rate, and the House will be even worse.

      2. What’s your point ? Tea Party is one and done; is that your thesis ? Third party will take too long. The DEM-Rats are downright scary once the light is turned-on. That leaves conservative, Constitution-loving Americans ONE choice; the GOP. The problems facing this country have been building for over 40 years; besides blaming theTea Party, what is your solution ? Folks, it’s impatience that will tear the Tea Party precepts apart; frustrated, now-or-never naive armchair critics, with no solutions. I can live with Michele Bachmann’s votes; she’s the real deal and speaks from her heart. She’s also tough as nails; fire in the belly patriot that will certainly shine in the years to come….

      3. What’s your point ? Tea Party is one and done; is that your thesis ? Third party will take too long. The DEM-Rats are downright scary once the light is turned-on. That leaves conservative, Constitution-loving Americans ONE choice; the GOP. The problems facing this country have been building for over 40 years; besides blaming theTea Party, what is your solution ? Folks, it’s impatience that will tear the Tea Party precepts apart; frustrated, now-or-never naive armchair critics, with no solutions. I can live with Michele Bachmann’s votes; she’s the real deal and speaks from her heart. She’s also tough as nails; fire in the belly patriot that will certainly shine in the years to come….

        1. “Fire in the belly patriot. . .” so the act is her namesake? /end snark

          Yes, Bachmann is fun invigorating rhetoric, but her actions (ie. votes) are just more of the same. That reading of the Constitution was nothing but show for all the folks back home, no more. The Tea Party Caucus leader voted for the destruction of the 4th Amendment of their purportedly cherished Constitution. Not to mention she’s on the record as a big fan of the TSA and they’re new procedures.

          If you haven’t been looking at the state of things, there isn’t another 40 years left to reduce government before it just collapses, violently, on it’s own anyway. I don’t have any problem at all with the State collapsing or a “government shutdown” everyone is fear-mongering over. The frustration for me is the panic a violent collapse will bring, the flat out lying by the GOP and the “it didn’t work but let’s do it again” mentality of it’s supporters. Talk is cheap when votes are tallied and it totals up against cutting government.

          What is the definition of insanity again?

          My solution? I’m already getting ready to move to NH for when the government collapses because with this batch in charge, and no better coming up, the collapse is an inevitability. NH already has a sizable Free State project, I’ll join a truly free society rising from the ashes of the US. The only possibility of smoothly reducing the State was if the Tea Party could be effective and stick to it’s “principles,” and it failed right out of the gate.

          The Tea Party reps had a chance to stand up and show themselves as not simple puppet votes in a clear attention-grabbing way. They shot down the nullification of privacy in a brief upset, then buckled like the weak-kneed funding patrons of the established interests they are after the first dust up.

          Rand Paul has a spine, but my new Senator (Rubio) and his compatriot “tea party freshmen” have already hired lobbyists to run their offices, don’t speak on the floor and just march along for McConnell.

          The GOP can kiss mine, at this point voting is nothing more than an expression of consent for the coercive, defrauding garbage D.C. is piling on us.

          1. I like your passion DT. At least you know what you like/dislike in life; more than one can say about many weak-kneed, ignorant scribes trolling conservative websites. You think moving to a state such as NH is the solution; you may be right. State rights issues are clearly the necessary foundation for returning to Constitutional precepts and limited-government. I believe that avoidance is not the answer; holding pol’s accountable will be a painstaking, yet necessary, process that will take 2-3 election cycles to complete. Boehner/Cantor/McConnell are not my cup of tea; they are SHORT TERM solutions prior to GOP reformation. RUSH has the right philosophy; keep voting the most conservative R candidates and hold them accountable….

          2. Anyone who would think of moving from Florida to New Hampshire is a moron. Not that we needed anymore proof in your case.

            By the way, what exactly is wrong with the Patriot Act? You Libertarians are using that vote to go after Tea Party Republicans. It’s not surprising because it’s a common tactic of liberals.

            1. Many of it’s provisions are “repugnant” to the Bill of Rights.

              Warrantless searches and seizures is a real biggie to me.

              Gag orders effective without ever being signed off by a judge is another (although I’ll readily admit there are a preponderance of corrupt judges that will sign pretty much anything the JBT Brown Shirts in our federal LE agencies put before them.)

              I’m sure there are many more abuses and usurpations but I’m not an expert on The Patriot Act. I have a family to support and so must defer to others who can make a living at this kind of thing to research and educate the public.

              Luckily, they only extended act for a few months so we have some time yet to continue the fight.

              I will say this, I will NOT vote to reelect anyone that voted to extend The (so-called) Patriot Act.

              1. You know what’s truly pathetic? Pelosi voted against it’s extension, as part of a plan to play populist I’m sure, but there you have it.

            2. The Patriot Act is another Orwellian “feel-good” effort to placate US into believing that Top Cops are keeping us safe. W created one of the largest expansions of federal police-state powers since FDR. Oh, I’m certain he meant well. Like being duped on TARP, W listened to police-state Intel in creation of this draconian police-state apparatus currently embedded in EVERY major city, county, and state police dept. Other than that, it’s been a peach of an idea…

            3. If you have the time there are three videos by Judge Andrew Napolitano Natural Rights and The Patriot Act on You Tube…I too never thought much about it until I heard these videos… it is unreal! This informatin is excellent knowledge!

              If this link doesn’t work for you type in Judge Andrew Napolitano Natural Rights and The Patriot Act part 1 in You Tube search

              1. Thanks for taking the time to post that. I’m watching the livestream from the Tea Party rally in Wisconsin so I’ll check your link later.

              2. Thanks for taking the time to post that. I’m watching the livestream from the Tea Party rally in Wisconsin so I’ll check your link later.

        2. I’d submit it’s more like 100 years than 40. At least all the way back to the so-called “New Deal”.

  15. The really sad fact is that most of these goofballs probably voted against this because they believe like the dems do that a govt. shutdown might be the end of civilization as we know it. Little do they realize it would be the greatest thing for Western Civilization in a couple of decades.

  16. Cantor has been a joke for a while. I laughed when Hannity was touting him as one of the “young guns.” He’s been terrible.

    Does anyone have a final roll call on this vote yet? When you get one, plz post a link. I’d like to see how my congressman voted.

    1. That info can be obtained from the Congress’s official website. Just goog, er uhhhh, do a yahoo (??) search for Congress + website or similar.

      1. Well I must be missing something or the website has yet to be updated

        http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:HR00001:@@@S|/home/LegislativeData.php?n=BSS;c=112|

        As you can see, the latest action listed is for just before 1am on the 18th. Nothing listed for what was happening in the middle of the day yesterday when this vote happened.

        Maybe the House lists the ammendments and votes strangely, but it would appear to me that the list just hasn’t been updated.

        1. Forget wondering if it isn’t updated, it simply isn’t. That ammendment was ammendment 104, the last ammendment proposed by listed on the clerk’s website is 101.

        2. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-2011-02-14/pdf/CREC-2011-02-14-pt1-PgH776-3.pdf

          Now, when you read the ammendment it specifically points out which part of the bill are to be reduced. I quote “Section 1101(a)(5) and title IX, 11 percent.”

          Here is what title IX (of division B) is. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:./temp/~c112NLCCEg:e399271:

          It’s the legislative branch’s dollar bills. Couldn’t cut themselves…so sad.

          Finally, I found the roll call for ammendment 104. http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll103.xml

          Good news, my guy Johnson voted for the ammendment. Bad news, plenty of other GOP members did not.

  17. I for one, has lost all faith in the GOP. They did a lot of talking prior to this past election but now we are seeing that is has been all BS. It is time for a third party to be form that will truly be conservatives and not claim to be conservatives when they are running for Office than turn into liberals after elected.

    1. Let’s not lose the forest for the trees.

      Sure, the vote greatly disappoints me. But a few things to keep in mind:

      This is the same body that just voted earlier in the day to defund Planned Parenthood, defund the individial mandate, and bar the EPA from using global warming regulations. There has been more good than bad today.

      Second, it’s getting veto’d anyway. I understand symbolism matters, but this budget, because of the things mentioned above, aren’t going through in the first place.

      Third, a third party split will only ensure the progressives gain unassailable dominance in the federal government and truly wreck the country and turn it into a third world nation.

      We were never going to fix the entire problem in a single election. We knew there were still many Republicans who needed to be primaried. Nothing has changed. That is still the case. Let’s not be discouraged because what we knew to be true a few months ago is now proving itself to be true for a fact. There are many progressives in the Republican party and they need to be defeated.

    2. Don’t vote third party. Vote the bastards out in primaries and change the GOP from within. That’s how the Progressives did it with the Democrats. Imagine if the Progressives had gone third party? They’d have got nowhere.

      The last election has given us some great people, like Rand Paul and Mike Lee. Good change can happen but we’ve got to be organized and fundamentally transform the Republican party from within.

      So let’s kick out these losers like Cantor and replace them with actual principled people. They’ve betrayed America and they should be kicked out of office.

      One more point – I DO HOPE there will be lots of Tea Party rallies this Tax Day. The Republicans learned nothing and they need to feel the heat big time.

    3. Don’t vote third party. Vote the bastards out in primaries and change the GOP from within. That’s how the Progressives did it with the Democrats. Imagine if the Progressives had gone third party? They’d have got nowhere.

      The last election has given us some great people, like Rand Paul and Mike Lee. Good change can happen but we’ve got to be organized and fundamentally transform the Republican party from within.

      So let’s kick out these losers like Cantor and replace them with actual principled people. They’ve betrayed America and they should be kicked out of office.

      One more point – I DO HOPE there will be lots of Tea Party rallies this Tax Day. The Republicans learned nothing and they need to feel the heat big time.

    4. After 2012. Priority number 1 is getting Obama out of the White House and a third party now would just ensure his reelection.

  18. Would that be the same Cantor who voted for the punitive post-facto taxation (confiscation) of the bonuses given in the early days of the financial crisis?
    The same Republicans who voted to extend the Patriot Act?
    The same Republicans who get drunk on earmarks?
    The same Republicans who never bothered to name what they would cut in the lead up?
    The same Repubicans who already chickened out of touching SS, Medicare, Medicaid, or the Military?
    The same Republicans who voted for TARP?

    Big f***ing surprise.

    1. I’m still shaking my head. Even dumb little Canada in the 1980’s during the Mulroney years, with a population the size of California, saddled with a whopping 450 Bil debt managed to make cuts more than a measly 22 Bil, although we ended up with a 7% VAT tax called GST which we are still saddled with.

      Is this real? To quote Levin, “What the hell is wrong with you people!” My wife calls it a disease. There can’t be any other explanation. When are you going to get the pitch forks and torches? What is it going to take? Now’s the time you good Americans! You knew this moment was coming. Take to the phones and any other electronic contrivance and haunt these bastards like a bad case of herpes.

      Sorry, for the intemperate language, but this is really pi$$ing me off.

      1. I’m already very well armed, but I don’t take part in aggression, I’m making plans to move to NH and join the Free State Project. I don’t normally consider legislated aggression on it’s own to be enough to warrant violent resistance, but I’m coming around more and more every day.

        As for your wife’s calling it a disease, she couldn’t be more right. It’s a virus of the mind.

        1. I’m sure the video’s reference to libertarian viruses and totalitarian viruses was simply to illustrate a larger point about the types of viruses. One is just slower at killing its host than the other. But both have the same destination. But I’m also sure the comparison was playing loose with his central thesis.

          Leave it to you Daniel to find a video combining your two great loves… science and libertarianism.

          1. I do my best. =P

            Keep in mind that the words used in the video are “more libertarian,” which is quite a bit different from simply “libertarian.”

            1. Does that mean a totalitarian virus can act “more” like a libertarian over a longer period of time to deceive his host by hiding his true identity.

              1. Lol In the context of society as a whole, appearances don’t change what something is, and what it is is what kills the host.

                Communism sells itself as more beneficent these days, but it will drain the life from societies no slower.

                In the context of individuals, sure. Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party candidate for president in 2008 personally helped the autocrat of Haiti get back into his country recently after leaving due to the earthquake. He still probably thinks himself a friend of liberty.

                Then you have people like Michelle Bachmann who presents herself a friend of freedom, but has no second thoughts about even acknowledging her actions against it.
                ———–
                If you set up the scale in a simplistic way of
                Totalitarian |z——x——y—-|Libertarian

                Y = More libertarian than X, but Y ≠ Libertarian(ism)
                X = More Totalitarian than Y, but X ≠ Totalitarian (totally)
                Z = More Totalitarian than X and Y, Z = Totalitarian
                ————
                To use real world examples
                US = More Libertarian than the USSR (or used to), US ≠ Libertarian

      2. P.S.
        “The same Republicans who never bothered to name what they would cut in the lead up?”

        Yup… and Paul Ryan, ever so gracious and careful not to verbalize which cuts they would be, better get his act together on that score. Just make the damn cuts and anything within the crosshairs… start shootin’. Extreme language be damned!

        1. He voted for TARP, and sells his budget plans on “this will SAVE Social Security.”

          I won’t hold my breath.

          1. I’ll forgive him TARP… after all Henry Paulson was warning that the sky would fall by 5pm that afternoon if TARP was not passed. TARP was eons ago. Now there really is NO excuse.

            1. That bit about Henry Paulson just show’s how he’s fooled by nonsensical apocalyptic fear-monger rhetoric, and that he can’t keep cool when **** hits the fan. And yes, TARP was eons ago and Americans have ADD, I don’t. He was also part of the auto bailouts and the same bonus tax as Cantor and many other R’s.

              Once is stupid, three times is something else.

              1. The auto bailout was part of the same TARP scheme, n’est pas? As well as the after the fact bonus tax which came slightly later. (which was contractually illegal in my opinion) It really was eons ago. And I don’t have ADD, I remember it fairly well, but those were simple times… sigh…. They all fell for it. It was a trinity of “nonsensical apocalyptic fear-monger rhetoric” and stupidity… not really a one, two, three in succession.

                1. If it was an orgy of stupidity is irrelevant to me. These are the people who claim the “authority” to run our lives and make decisions with our “consent” and money. If an everyday schlub like me can see through the manure and they couldn’t, how are they trusted with the reins of anything? Don’t answer that, the obscene popularity contests we call “elections” are not something easily forgotten

                  I distinctly remember the auto bailout coming after TARP, and the Bonus tax (complete obliteration of the sanctity of Contract Law) coming after both or at least TARP. I may well be wrong, and I’m too tired right now to check the dates.

                  He was part of opening the door to Obama and all the ridiculous “stimulus” garbage that since came. He happily marched along with Bush’s mantra of “abandon free market principles to save the free market,” as if that makes sense in any universe.

                  You’re not America at large, America at large doesn’t even recognize the terms “Libertarian” or “Voluntaryist” and they don’t care about these issues. You and I are freaks in the scheme of it all. America at large has ADD, and the length of time past since monumental screw ups does not have a diminishing effect on the magnitude of those screw ups, to me. I may be wrong but I have complete faith that Paul Ryan is as full of crap as his two fellow “young guns” that just voted against cutting $22billion.

                2. “and the length of time past since monumental screw ups does not have a diminishing effect on the magnitude of those screw ups, to me.”

                  Agreed. Had it only remained at TARP, there might be a fighting chance.

                  You know Daniel, at this point, all I can do is shake my head. America is all Crazy Town, all the time. I was watching our CBC with a press conference with PM Harper about Obama’s plan to charge Canadians a measly 5 dollars to enter the US by air or ship. When asked about it, Harper reiterated America’s grave fiscal situation prompting such a petty entry tax. What was telling was Harper’s almost disbelief that the congress can’t get their act together. Harper is not one to wear his emotions on his sleeve nor reveal what he really thinks very easily, but you could see he too was really flummoxed by what is going on south of our border. I don’t think he has a lot of respect for Obama (who does?)

                  80% of our trade is with you guys, and although Japan, and now China, gets all the attention about trade issues, the real untold story is that America’s single largest trading partner is Canada. Canada is the most stable economy in the G20, but with Obama and that clump of hair lodged in the drainpipe called Congress, I pray for you.

                  I do agree with one of the commenters on this posting that the new Tea Partiers in Congress have only just begun… miracles are not worked in a day… there is so much against them, even within the party. But boy! Time is short. So while I can get your philosophical parting company with Americans who hold to impure free market ideas and Constitutional norms as opposed to your pure Libertarian vision, ideological purity does not explain what is taking place right now in America. There is something more sinister at play.

                  Those swipes you take at Conservative America are often ill placed. Those conservatives are the only ones standing between Obama and hell itself. Don’t sacrifice the good and noble, albeit imperfect, for the the sake of the pure Libertarian vision, which in times like this, as you admitted, is not on anyone’s radar. The real enemy is Obama and that metastasized blob called the Democrats and Rinos. All hands are needed on deck.

                  Anyway… just ramblings for a Friday night.
                  Cheers

                3. Once the $1trillion+ sitting in banks from absurd legislation starts flowing into the markets because of ginned up propaganda about the rebooting economy, that’s when the real fun will begin. Our fractional-reserve banking system is going to kick-start the death spiral once again just as it has every time in our history.

                  When I see a Conservative who is truly in favor of less government, instead of big government in a different direction, and doesn’t hyphenate himself/herself with -libertarian or libertarian-, I’ll accept that “small government” and “conservative” can go together. But this denial of reality on the part of the “right” in the US is driving me up the walls.

                  The wars, the oversea bases, the gross bureaucratic inefficiencies in the military, the needless indulgence of cops’ desire for new toys, and this big business fetish are not things that can be kept up in these economic circumstances. No more than the Department of Education, Energy, entities like Fannie & Freddie, subsidies, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Faith-based Initiatives, Foreign Aid (yes, even to Israel), etc etc etc. Our prison system would be a wonderful target of reform too, we have more people in prison than both China and Russia, both per capita and total numbers.

                  The time for sacred cows has long since passed, and when you still have people hailed as Conservative leaders putting an asterisk at the end of all their statements about needing to cut spending, they have no credibility. I’m seeing individuals in real life and on message boards waking up, but none of the people with a vote that matters (the idiots in D.C.)

                  While I’m at it, the cries about “freedom” and “liberty” are getting pretty tired too when they turn around and sheepishly bleat the line about “it makes us safer, so I’m okay with it.”

                4. Read a little so far, and watched a video on one of those links; so far it all seems like a dreamt up utopia which is impossible between societies considering the size of society as a whole. I see similarities (which we have talked about before) with communism and other similar philosophies which depend on the people to be perfect, at least (in this case) through a possible transitionary period- otherwise others would be able to take advantage due to their influence, money, power, land ownership.

                  You never really made clear how to get there (in as far as I can tell). I know what your ends are, but what is the way to get there; outlined, clear, and ideal?

                  Without hiding behind a bush, it seems like you would advocate a revolutionary period where the transition is made (as do some of the links you provided advocate).

                  You also did mention “least likely” as a caveat for “through political means” which means that you do not see it possible to get to your ideal state without revolution.

                  Let me know what you think-

                5. Revolution has a negative connotation in peoples minds. They always leap directly to bolsheviks with guns and molotov cocktails, or angry hoods destroying town in a mob. Let me put an end to that right away by pointing out that the Non-Aggression Principle (or axiom) is completely central to Libertarian ideologies.

                  Revolution(ary) is used in a more general sense in Agorist/Libertarian theory. Think “Industrial Revolution.” Agorism is referred to as revolutionary because it’s about the advocation/participation in all non-violent activities banned by the State. Counter-Economics in other words, making as much of your economic activity take place in the Gray or Black markets, and advocating others do so both for their direct benefit and to starve the State of tax revenue. The ultimate goal being to starve the State out of existence.

                  Using political means would involve electing people who abolish regulatory bodies, abolish taxes, abolish arbitrary laws banning non-aggressive activities, abolish union-favoring and corporatist legislation, and privatizing as much as possible until there is nothing left. For obvious reasons this is the least likely, but worth some focus in case Ron Paul isn’t a fraud and there are more of him out there.

                  Then there’s education, like you see with the Free State project in New Hampshire, and it’s smaller offshoot groups based around towns or communities like Free Keene. The direct goal of this is to demystify the idea of the State in the minds of people as some magically sovereign, authoritative, and legitimate entity. Very large activist communities in NH are essentially living what the Cato Institute does as a job, and trying to push the State out of their lives as much as they can.

                  “Utopian” is a common accusation, meaning we require a perfected or perfectable human nature, or world. We are not utopian, merely at an extreme disadvantage because we stand against the entity that everyone is familiar with, and more importantly, is educated by. Unlikely or difficult do not equate to utopian.

                  I have some more reading for you if you are interested regarding the “utopian” issue, considering it’s the most common and early brought up reaction.
                  http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp
                  do a Ctrl+F (Command+F on macs) for “Are we “Utopians”?” down on page 299

                  Libertarians, as you might read, would argue that free-market conservatives, Minarchists, and “limited government” types are utopian for denying the nature of the state. We do not deny the nature of Man, we rely on it as it has been expressed through history.

                6. This is good Dan… with few exceptions this is wholly reasonable.
                  You said:
                  “Counter-Economics in other words, making as much of your economic activity take place in the Gray or Black markets, and advocating others do so both for their direct benefit and to starve the State of tax revenue. The ultimate goal being to starve the State out of existence.”
                  This was my experience when I lived in Holland… about 15-20 percent of the economy was what was called “black”. Payments under the table are endemic there. People got fed up with the high theft through the tax structure. For this reason, the Government worked to eliminated it but to limited success. The Globalists’ first priority is to eliminate cash. Once this is complete, they will have total absolute control.

                7. Warning, this one is 50 minutes long. It’s very thorough though, and will probably answer most of your questions without me monopolizing more of this thread.

                8. Your link is opened in a new window-

                  My newest addition is at the bottom-

                  1 more question that I had thought about before we started a discussion, after reading your post:

                  If a person in your ideal society kills another person (and his kin) and takes his property.

                  i.e.- We are neighbors, my lineage lives in my house. You attack my house, and kill me and all my family, extended included.

                  The society realizes you committed a crime against me. Who brings justice against you? What is the justice? What happens to my property, which you stole, and what happens to your property after you receive justice?

                  Feel free to answer in a new thread.

                9. Of that listing you posted, SS, Medicare, Medicaid are the BIG THREE that make up the biggest chunk…. even Military pales (sort of) by comparison. On a side note who’d you think would protect the seas for the all important oil routes. Protecting the seas from Piracy is America’s greatest ongoing achievement. And until domestic sources are utilized it is pointless to even think of reducing military. This non-interventionism miasma in which Ron Paul gropes around totally makes him look foolish IMO. I have less respect for him daily, and Rand as well on issues of military. Both are simply stuck on stupid by ignoring real malevolent forces out there. MIlitary spending, while huge, is the least of America’s spending problems.

                  I’ll agree with you about all the other sacred cows, just not the military. But with all the dismantling Obama is engaging in… it may be too late anyway.

                  Dan, you exact a measure of purity that betrays the intolerance of someone very young. There are millions of American Conservatives who think like you on whole swaths of the same issues.

                  The Republican Party suffers the same takeover of Progressive thought and laziness which has inflicted the Democrat Party since its inception. The virus is spreading. No third-partyism for me. Purge the party is the only option. Pure Libertarianism is not going to fly and accept if you will, but IMO it does have utopian stitching woven throughout and yes social conservatives won’t buy into it wholly. But that’s an argument for another day.

                  But it is a mistake to dump on the Republican Party for its lack of purity. The Tea Party movement is the first step in bringing it anywhere close to its core principles. Because its not happening fast enough is no excuse to dismiss it in favor of some difficult to attain ideal, at this point anyway. There is no Libertarian Calvary on the horizon. Don’t jump ship for icy waters if the ship is still trying to catch wind in its sails. Keep taking the Libertarian message and propagate it to Conservatives like me. That’s what makes your message valuable. But to write off the Conservative movement for lack of purity is a grave mistake. That dog won’t hunt… you can’t buy anything with that position, and it won’t win anybody over.

                  Yes, you are right, people are waking up… yes even in Congress. Don’t write them off as much as you’d like to slap them up the backside of the head. Your message is valuable, but it would have much more traction if you would work with what’s available…. bringing those who don’t quite get it yet to a deeper place of understanding.

                  Anyway… too early innn morning…neeed koffey!!

                10. P.S…. you reference people worshiping at the foot of Reagan’s idol… have you seen the Ron Paul worshipers out there. They’re scary! They were yelling things like “War Criminal” etc at CPAC against Rumsfeld. Paul travels with a retinue and coterie of worshipers who flower him with accolades on a daily basis. I think it unseemly.

                11. p.s2.. I said, “Pure Libertarianism is not going to fly and accept if you will, but IMO it does have utopian stitching woven throughout”.

                  Don’t get me wrong, I understand utopian is advocating something contrary to human nature. I don’t see Libertarianism as utopian in that sense. I use it in the sense that Rothbard did… he recognized that charges of “utopian” were predicated on the will of people to simply accept the truth and efficacy that libertarianism is the right way to go. It’s an uphill battle. That’s where you are at in this fight… fighting and being frustrated with resistance to the message as utopian. So don’t throw in the towel on Conservatism if the only repository of Libertarian values in society resides in the Conservative camp.

                12. I don’t like Ron Paul Cultists either. The problem in the GOP is not purity, it’s a lack of spine or honesty.

                  The GOP has correctly said all the things that need to be done, but it’s leadership turns out to be just as big a group of liars as in the past.

                13. Of that listing you posted, SS, Medicare, Medicaid are the BIG THREE that make up the biggest chunk…. even Military pales (sort of) by comparison. On a side note who’d you think would protect the seas for the all important oil routes. Protecting the seas from Piracy is America’s greatest ongoing achievement. And until domestic sources are utilized it is pointless to even think of reducing military. This non-interventionism miasma in which Ron Paul gropes around totally makes him look foolish IMO. I have less respect for him daily, and Rand as well on issues of military. Both are simply stuck on stupid by ignoring real malevolent forces out there. MIlitary spending, while huge, is the least of America’s spending problems.

                  I’ll agree with you about all the other sacred cows, just not the military. But with all the dismantling Obama is engaging in… it may be too late anyway.

                  Dan, you exact a measure of purity that betrays the intolerance of someone very young. There are millions of American Conservatives who think like you on whole swaths of the same issues.

                  The Republican Party suffers the same takeover of Progressive thought and laziness which has inflicted the Democrat Party since its inception. The virus is spreading. No third-partyism for me. Purge the party is the only option. Pure Libertarianism is not going to fly and accept if you will, but IMO it does have utopian stitching woven throughout and yes social conservatives won’t buy into it wholly. But that’s an argument for another day.

                  But it is a mistake to dump on the Republican Party for its lack of purity. The Tea Party movement is the first step in bringing it anywhere close to its core principles. Because its not happening fast enough is no excuse to dismiss it in favor of some difficult to attain ideal, at this point anyway. There is no Libertarian Calvary on the horizon. Don’t jump ship for icy waters if the ship is still trying to catch wind in its sails. Keep taking the Libertarian message and propagate it to Conservatives like me. That’s what makes your message valuable. But to write off the Conservative movement for lack of purity is a grave mistake. That dog won’t hunt… you can’t buy anything with that position, and it won’t win anybody over.

                  Yes, you are right, people are waking up… yes even in Congress. Don’t write them off as much as you’d like to slap them up the backside of the head. Your message is valuable, but it would have much more traction if you would work with what’s available…. bringing those who don’t quite get it yet to a deeper place of understanding.

                  Anyway… too early innn morning…neeed koffey!!

                14. Of that listing you posted, SS, Medicare, Medicaid are the BIG THREE that make up the biggest chunk…. even Military pales (sort of) by comparison. On a side note who’d you think would protect the seas for the all important oil routes. Protecting the seas from Piracy is America’s greatest ongoing achievement. And until domestic sources are utilized it is pointless to even think of reducing military. This non-interventionism miasma in which Ron Paul gropes around totally makes him look foolish IMO. I have less respect for him daily, and Rand as well on issues of military. Both are simply stuck on stupid by ignoring real malevolent forces out there. MIlitary spending, while huge, is the least of America’s spending problems.

                  I’ll agree with you about all the other sacred cows, just not the military. But with all the dismantling Obama is engaging in… it may be too late anyway.

                  Dan, you exact a measure of purity that betrays the intolerance of someone very young. There are millions of American Conservatives who think like you on whole swaths of the same issues.

                  The Republican Party suffers the same takeover of Progressive thought and laziness which has inflicted the Democrat Party since its inception. The virus is spreading. No third-partyism for me. Purge the party is the only option. Pure Libertarianism is not going to fly and accept if you will, but IMO it does have utopian stitching woven throughout and yes social conservatives won’t buy into it wholly. But that’s an argument for another day.

                  But it is a mistake to dump on the Republican Party for its lack of purity. The Tea Party movement is the first step in bringing it anywhere close to its core principles. Because its not happening fast enough is no excuse to dismiss it in favor of some difficult to attain ideal, at this point anyway. There is no Libertarian Calvary on the horizon. Don’t jump ship for icy waters if the ship is still trying to catch wind in its sails. Keep taking the Libertarian message and propagate it to Conservatives like me. That’s what makes your message valuable. But to write off the Conservative movement for lack of purity is a grave mistake. That dog won’t hunt… you can’t buy anything with that position, and it won’t win anybody over.

                  Yes, you are right, people are waking up… yes even in Congress. Don’t write them off as much as you’d like to slap them up the backside of the head. Your message is valuable, but it would have much more traction if you would work with what’s available…. bringing those who don’t quite get it yet to a deeper place of understanding.

                  Anyway… too early innn morning…neeed koffey!!

                15. If it was an orgy of stupidity is irrelevant to me. These are the people who claim the “authority” to run our lives and make decisions with our “consent” and money. If an everyday schlub like me can see through the manure and they couldn’t, how are they trusted with the reins of anything? Don’t answer that, the obscene popularity contests we call “elections” are not something easily forgotten

                  I distinctly remember the auto bailout coming after TARP, and the Bonus tax (complete obliteration of the sanctity of Contract Law) coming after both or at least TARP. I may well be wrong, and I’m too tired right now to check the dates.

                  He was part of opening the door to Obama and all the ridiculous “stimulus” garbage that since came. He happily marched along with Bush’s mantra of “abandon free market principles to save the free market,” as if that makes sense in any universe.

                  You’re not America at large, America at large doesn’t even recognize the terms “Libertarian” or “Voluntaryist” and they don’t care about these issues. You and I are freaks in the scheme of it all. America at large has ADD, and the length of time past since monumental screw ups does not have a diminishing effect on the magnitude of those screw ups, to me. I may be wrong but I have complete faith that Paul Ryan is as full of crap as his two fellow “young guns” that just voted against cutting $22billion.

          2. P.S. To be fair to Ryan… his argument is that SS should be grandfathered for those soon to get it or on it now. He’s after the younger generation from where the real cuts would come to help incentivize their own retirement schemes.

        2. He voted for TARP, and sells his budget plans on “this will SAVE Social Security.”

          I won’t hold my breath.

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