MUST READ – Walid Shoebat on Bible Prophecy: What lies ahead

This is a HUGE article in my opinion, especially if you are Christian. Walid Shoebat lays out what is to come as we watch the Middle East morph into an Islamic caliphate and how the nations are setting up for peace between theses Islamic nations and Israel. It seems we are rapidly approaching end times now and Walid has called it all the way.

The one thing I found especially interesting was that he seems to name the Antichrist, suggesting it is Erdogan of Turkey. He doesn’t say it explicitly as in ‘Erdogan is the Antichrist’, but he makes comparisons of Erdogan to scriptural references of the Antichrist (Gog) from Daniel and it seems to me he points the big prophecy finger right at him. A very interesting development.

As I said in the title, this is a MUST READ. It’s long but it’s fascinating and well worth your time.

By Walid Shoebat

The U.S. and Israel are concerned about Iran’s Uranium Enrichment; Iran experiments with Duetrium, Brillium and Tritium – agents that are only used to detonate a Nuclear bomb. They have no waste facilities and it’s like the 9/11 hijackers learning how to take off but have no interest in learning how to land.

However, Israel and the U.S. cannot afford attacking Iran who will blockade the Hormuz. I was right all along; no attack happened and Iran will possess a nuclear weapon.

Iran is returning to it’s original historic state.

Eventually, the United States will fight against the Islamist nations. The good news (unlike what the modern prophecy buffs have taught) is that the U.S. will continue to be the strongest military power and will stand against Turkey in the end.

The U.S. is “the strongest of fortresses” (Daniel 11:39) which will eventually destroy the Islamic alliance:

“Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas”. (Ezekiel 28:7-8)

The naval armada of the U.S., Italy, Greece, Spain and others will crush the Islamic alliance in the sea.
The use of the phrase, “Terrible of the nations” does not mean awful or ugly but “terrible in battle”, as in “the most powerful nations on earth”.

Antichrist does not rule the entire globe as is commonly thought, nor is he the ruler of the most powerful nation on earth.

Just read your Bible and not the Left Behind series.

This is the U.S. alongside other allies that will wake up in the end.

Christians need to stop heeding the warnings of fatalists who warn of the utter doom of America. Instead, they must pursue their nationalist aspirations – which stem from the Bible – against the universalists of Satan.

This defeatist mentality is hardly Christian; God ordained nationalism and has set up America for His purpose, to destroy tyrannies as it has always done.

I can already hear my critics but may I remind them that for years, they said Turkey was secular and that because that nation was an ally of Israel, our prophetic model would be far-fetched at best.

Where are these critics today?

Today, we do not see Europeans threatening Israel but we find Turkey parking it’s naval fleet on the Mediterranean, threatening Israeli and Greek oil exploration.

Today, Erdogan of Turkey has emerged as the hero of the Muslim world.

Erdogan was able gain admiration of the Muslim world when he walked out on Perez at the Davos debate and even regained Perez’s admiration later.

While the U.S., the E.U. and the U.N. begged Hamas to release Gilad Shalit, it was Erdogan of Turkey who finally brokered a deal, ordering Hamas to release him which portrayed the Turkish Prime Minister as the perfect broker between Islamists and Israel.

In Libya, Tunisia and Turkey are rising Islamist regimes that speak about entering Jerusalem triumphant. It is why Erdogan tells the more than 50 Muslim states O.I.C (Organization of Islamic Cooperation)…

“Jerusalem is the apple of the eye of every Muslim.”

Even if Israel gives up the Golan Heights, it will be used by such regimes to advance on Israel’s Adam’s apple. It’s not a Palestinian land issue but the issue of an existence of Jews within Muslim lands.

I have been saying it for years… “Hamas will recognize Israel” and become the dominant Palestinian force.

Today, this is becoming reality. Hamas today is courting Israel for a peace deal and while the recent elections in Israel saw the re-election of Netanyahu, election results seemed to indicate a lurch toward the middle in Israeli government and the further left that government moves, the more open it will be to signing treaties with Islamists.

Al-Quds al-Arabi has reported that Mashaal, who is expected to retire from being head of Hamas’s political bureau, has his eye on the Palestine Liberation Organization’s top position, aiming to replace Mahmoud Abbas as head of the PLO’s Executive Committee.

After the PA’s successful bid to upgrade its status at the UN, Hamas is moving closer than ever to play the same political game Yasser Arafat played even though many within Hamas deny it.

Take Hamas legislator Salah Bardaweel, who denied that his movement was prepared to accept the two-state solution.

But if you look at his answer closely: “Hamas’s political program can’t change overnight,” he said that there was a difference between accepting a Palestinian state based on the 1967 territories and recognizing Israel’s right to exist – something which he added, “Hamas would never do.”

It’s a contradiction. In other words, “We accept two states, but we don’t.” Translation: we will never accept Israel’s right to exist.

The change of position is fueled by Hamas’s interest in replacing Mahmoud Abbas as the head of the PLO. King Abdullah, an outspoken advocate of the two-state solution, is backing Meshal’s bid.

Hamas has solid support in Palestine and could conceivably replace Fatah.

They are all jumping on the bandwagon to make a deal. Saeb Erekat and Deputy Foreign Minister Ghazi Hamad supported the motion.

Even the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine’s (PFLP) Kayed Al-Ghul calls it “political adaptation” in order to gain International recognition. Saleh Zeedan of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) also welcomes the move.

This is why they are currently going to Egypt for reconciliation between the PLO and Hamas. Egypt will be where this peace-deal will happen. (Isaiah 28:14-15)

Hamas insists on arranging elections in order to basically take over the Palestinian arena, especially since the European Union shows much support for establishing a Palestinian state as has been seen in the United Nations recently. Of course, the only way to jump on the bandwagon is to accept a two-state solution.

Couple this with latest boost of Islamic success in the Arab Spring. Egypt, for example, is the most powerful Arab country and will see to it that Hamas follows its mother – the Muslim Brotherhood. If Hamas wants to have a Hudna, it must first get the approval of the Muslim Brotherhood. This is why I had always stated that the Camp David Accords will not be broken soon. In fact, it will be reconfirmed until the strength of Islam takes root in the global arena.

Egypt is in economic collapse. Israel knows that Egypt needs help from the West and that the latter wants to bank on this to keep peace with Israel.

Mahmoud Zahar visited Iran recently, so it’s an Iranian strategy to push this peace initiative in order to divert attention from its nuclear program and to halt any Israeli attacks on Iran. This will thwart Israel’s efforts (Iran supplied Fajr 5 to Hamas) and isolate it further within the region.

But who will broker this deal?

Even European leaders like former French President Sarkozy confess that Turkey and not the E.U. is the perfect government that will broker any peace deals with Israel in the Middle East.

What has been coming to pass is not what many modern prophecy buffs have been saying for the last several decades but what we have gleaned from the scholars of the past. Hilaire Belloc, Bishop Fulton Sheen, Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica, Vernon Richards, Sir Robert Anderson, Cyril of Jerusalem, Sophronius the Patriarch of Jerusalem (560-638), Maximus The Confessor (580-662), John of Damascus (676-749), Eulogius of Cordova, Paul Alvarus, the Martyrs of Cordova, John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards the great American Revivalist all saw Islam as playing the major roll in the End-Times. These and many others simply focused on the literal proclamations in the Bible – as we have done for several years in our book God’s War on Terror; Islam Prophecy and the Bible.

So where are my critics today?

What I have written fifteen years ago in Why I Left Jihad is coming to pass. Today, Turkey, North Africa (Libya, Tunisia), Egypt will all elect to be ruled by Islamic Sharia.

Some might view this as a sense of pride.


Do they prefer we be wrong rather than right?

Is it a good thing to be afflicted with Islamophobia? Pre-order the new book from Walid Shoebat, The Case FOR ISLAMOPHOBIA: Jihad by the Word; America’s Final Warning.

Indeed, “set times and set laws” are changing throughout the Middle East and this revived law is Islamic Sharia. The Gog of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan succeeded as we have been saying for years in establishing himself permanently by concocting the Ergenekon Conspiracy, thwarting the Generals and the judges. Erdogan does not “honor the desire of women” (Daniel 11:37) and prohibits them entry into the government while he promoted the Hijabization of women.

It is not any European leader that is setting his eyes on Jerusalem, but Erdogan of Turkey who declared during his speech to the most important Islamist body in the Muslim world – the O.I.C Organization of Islamic Council, saying that “Jerusalem is the apple of the eye of every Muslim”.

No French, Italian or German European Union leader made such proclamations. And as we predicted, Turkey failed entry into the European Union since the beast is the body of a Leopard (Revelation 13:2) (The Greco-Roman) and not European. With its feet of the Bear (Iran) and its mouth of the Lion (Babylonia).

Today, Turkey is courting Russia and China to join the Shaghai-5 and not the E.U.

The biblical prophecies are accurate but misunderstood.

Daniel 7 and 8 are not about ancient historic events dealing with the Babylonian Empire exclusively but there are parallels: Lion standing on feet, bear rising on one side, leopard coming up in the end.

Iraq (The Babylonian Empire) was the major power in the Middle East when Saddam was in charge; its wings were clipped, then plucked before being humbled by the U.S. Iran rose (bear on one side without Media-Kurdistan) and today we have the Shia-Crescent – the Persian Bear – rising.

This term “Shia-Crescent” was coined by Abdullah II, king of Jordan, after which it became popular in political debates. References to the Shia Crescent are often made with the belief that the common religion gives good potential for cooperation.

The countries included in this are Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Azerbaijan.

Now we have Turkey coming out exactly where Greece used to be. Ever wonder why Zechariah 9 (Ionia/Greece) is one of the four Grecian kingdoms?

But perhaps the Ottoman was intended as well, which was broken into 4 and out of one of them will arise the last one. Mehmed II made Constantinople (present-day Istanbul) the new capital of the Ottoman Empire, and he assumed the title of Kayser-i Rûm (Caesar Romanus = Roman Emperor).

Mehmed II wanted to gain control over the Western capital, Rome, and Ottoman forces occupied parts of the Italian peninsula. After Mehmed II’s death on 3 May 1481, the campaign in Italy was cancelled and Ottoman forces retreated.

Today, the contest between Iran (the bear) and Turkey (the Leopard) will see Turkey emerge victorious. As a result, Iraq will continue to weaken after being gobbled up by Iran following America’s exit.

By this, Turkey will control the Suez and the Bosporus while Iran controls the Hormuz. This will undermine the U.S. naval hegemony in the region, which eventually will use its military armada alongside other allied European nations to fight in the Middle East.

With the end of Arab Nationalism, we have a void to be filled with the Turkish Model; that model is ‘moderate Islam’. The fall of Arab Nationalism will cause the Arab world to be looking for a protector and a guard – “be a guard unto them”. (Ezekiel 38:7)


Gog (Antichrist) will be the guardian of Libya, Persia and Somalia/Sudan (Cush).

You might ask, how will Iran accept him as guardian?


  1. In March 2011, Muqtada Sadr (Shia) welcomed Erdogan in Iraq.
  2. The Shia religious institution in Persia are Azeri Turks, not Persians.
  3. Iran and Sadr would like Turkey to mediate in Bahrain, which is majority Shia. Turkey—During Erdogan’s trip to Cairo, Tunis and Tripoli, he told rapt audiences that Islam and democracy can co-exist. This is part of the stealth (Muruna) Islam can adapt to times until it gains its goals. Part of his fame comes from an economic explosion. Erdogan has embraced the free market and overseen a near tripling of per capita income since taking power a decade ago. Last year, the economy grew at 8.9 percent, one of the highest rates in the world. Today, Turkey boasts one of the fastest growing middle classes in the Middle East. The beast is constructed of strong and weak nations.

Today, the West will welcome Turkey as a better option to replace Iran’s revolution. In the Western view this will moderate Hamas and Syria, which will take it’s orders from Turkey instead of Iran. It will also give Saudi Arabia security being an ally with Sunni Turkey protecting it from Iran. Turkey appeased the U.S. by allowing it to place the RADAR system in Turkey.

Mustafa Aykol, a Turkish newspaper columnist and frequent Erdogan defender, said his Justice and Development Party, known by its Turkish initials, AKP, is a model for Islamist parties in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya. In a new book, Islam Without Extremes: A Muslim Case for Liberty, Aykol told Rueters that there can be liberalism within Islam and challenges the authoritarian interpretations of Iran, Saudi Arabia and militant groups.

The prudent in the western Church will begin to realize that the Antichrist system will not be the European Union – as modern prophecy buffs have stated for years – but an Islamic Union led by Turkey. In Zechariah 9:13, the Lord declares:

“I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Yavan.”

In this passage, Israel is seen fighting against Ionia or Yavan, not the European Union. In several Bibles, this word is translated as “Greece” but Ionia/Yavan was simply a province that was located on the western coast of modern Turkey. This is crucial because the clear context of this battle is the return of Christ: “Then Jehovah will appear over them” and fight on their behalf. So in the End-Times, at the time when Jesus returns, the Jews (Zion) will be engaged in a war with Turkey (Yavan).

As we predicted several years ago, Egypt has fallen. We stated that Egypt will end up in civil war between secularists and Salafists / Muslim Brotherhood with the Christians of Egypt slaughtered in the process.

All this is spelled out in Isaiah 19. Egypt – in the coming years – will be weakened to the point that the Turks (Iron) will take over the weakened clay nations of Egypt, Tunisia and Libya (Daniel 11:42). These just opted for the fad of Sharia over western secularism exactly as we stated long ago.

The Babylon of the end-times is not Iraq, which is soon to be gobbled up by Iran. While modern prophecy buffs predicted the revival of Iraq’s Babylon by Saddam, their predictions are in the garbage bin of history.

They failed to examine Scripture closely and isolated verses from their own pre-conceived context. The Bible in end-time prophecy never even mentions ancient cities of Babylon; in every verse in the Bible where a region or city within this predicted Babylon is mentioned, that region or city is in Arabia, not Iraq (Isaiah 21, Jeremiah 49). It is Kedar, Dumah and Arabia; there is no mention of Babel, Sumer, Accad, Erech, Calneh in any of these verses.

Arabia is the mouthpiece (mouth of a lion), which Islam emanates from. It is the Harlot from the desert Island (Revelation 17:3) that sits on many waters, the “desert of the sea” (Isaiah 21) which John saw.

The Antichrist is said to rule from Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-13), which Christ proclaimed would be the future seat of Satan. This is on the sides of the northern lands (Asia Minor / Turkey).

Riyadh reacted with intense anger after the US revealed a plot laid by a secret Iranian military unit, the Quds force, to assassinate the Saudi ambassador to Washington. The attempted assassination of Adel Al-Jubeir, Saudi Ambassador to the U.S., caused Iranians to cancel the Haj. The rift between Iran and Saudi Arabia will cause Iran to nuke Arabia (Isaiah 21) “Arise O Elam” against Babylon of Arabia.

What is left for 2013 and beyond is for Turkey to spread its tentacles into the Muslim nations and eventually Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans, Mauritanians, Sudanese, Somalis, Syrians, Pakistanis, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, and Turkmens will all be looking at Turkey’s Islamist model while pledging allegiance to the New Ottomans.

We have said for years that the Ottoman Empire will be revived. Lo and behold, here we are. While many of these nations speak Arabic, they are hardly Arab. Arab Nationalism is out and Islamist Universalism is in. Just look at every Muslim country on earth.

A Caliphate will arise out of Turkey and the Gog of Turkey will portray himself as the re-incarnation of Muhammad, Saladin and the Ottoman Sulaiman Al-Qanuni (Solomon the law-giver).

Islam being controlled by non-Arabs will eventually put Saudi Arabia at risk of destruction by Iran (Isaiah 21); Arabia, the source of Islam, will be no more (Isaiah 34, Ezekiel 25:13); and the oil of the Arabs will burn forever (Isaiah 34:9). All this will happen despite the U.S. effort to arm Arabia to the teeth.

Unlike western media, which is in collective denial, I read the Arabic and the “Turkish Model” today is a household name in the Muslim political arena; millions in the Muslim world are calling for Erdogan to lead them with his modernistic Islamist model. With the Turkish model, Turkey and the Muslims will snooker the West into thinking that at least “moderate” Islam is better than fundamentalist Islam. Peaceful Islam will be the talk for the next few years to come and…

“by peace he [Antichrist] will deceive many” (Daniel 8:25).

The West will enter another Neville Chamberlain era, buying into the “peace in our time” mantra.

In so doing, it will fulfill more Biblical truths:

“just when they say peace and safety sudden destruction will come…” 1 Thessalonians 5:3

At this point, the West will find out in the end that “Secular Islam” and “Fundamentalist Islam” are two faces of the same coin.

You heard it here first… again.

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154 thoughts on “MUST READ – Walid Shoebat on Bible Prophecy: What lies ahead

  1. @David Liepert I REALLY don’t think we have 200 years left.  Dear Leader has already expressed to the UN about the one -world government how he would like to see it and ‘lead’ the American Union.  The pope has met with high level religious leaders in an attempt to garner support for a ‘unified’ religion.  The Islamists are slowly taking over innocent, peaceful countries here in Asia.  The black flags are raising in America as we speak.  Better look around.  I don’t know when it is coming, but it will be soon.

  2. I was always taught that Gog and Magog is Russia and I have never heard of Gog being the Antichrist. I do think that people are wrong about the EU being where the Antichrist comes out of and I think that he does come out of a Middle Eastern country and it’s probably Turkey. The Bible says that the Antichrist will come out of the people who destroyed the temple and while that happened during the Roman Empire it does not neccessarily mean that he is from the EU since the Roman Empire split into and it had an eastern and western split(the legs of the statue in Daniels dream) and I think that the Antichrist is coming out of the eastern leg.

  3. More significantly, our founders built our nation around the concept of Personal Sovereignty. Your right to live your life for your own sake. Our national identity comes from that. It does not mean we are, as a nation, in favor of Nationalist policies

    And who is protecting this ??

    Yep the nation state !

  4. Walid’s got it wrong with Bible prophecy, just like most Christians who don’t spend enough time talking to Rabbis, who’ll tell you that according to Daniels’ time-line we’ve got over 200 years to go!
    However, I agree you can’t really understand Judaism, or Christianity or Islam without considering them together, and I think the best example of that is how the moon got to be the symbol of Islam in the first place, found in the Jewish Torah. There it records that Joseph, the son of Israel and Rachel, had a dream in which 11 stars representing his brothers, the sun representing his father, and the moon representing his mother all bowed down to him.

    But the reason why the moon was Rachel’s symbol is something Evangelical Christians need to pay attention to: because it has always been the symbol of the non-Jewish monotheistic proto-Palestinian tribes, confirming their place in the Holy Land since Abraham’s time. Identified as either the Ishmaelites or the Midianites — the tribe led by Jethro that Moses married in to — their symbol was always the moon, throughout the OT.

    And if you know that simple fact, then plugging those symbols into the NT, instead of promising an early Armageddon John’s Revelation at the end of the Christian Bible promises a happy ending for everyone.

    Because there Israel is described as a woman clothed by the sun (Israel), crowned with the Jewish/Palestinian children of Israel/Rachel and Leah (Palestinian/Jewish unity), and supported by the moon (Islam).

    And if Daniel’s right we have at least 200 years to get there, to the place Jews and Palestinians live together as equals, and support human rights and freedoms for all in Israel in Peace: and 200 years is almost as long as America’s been around!

    I’ll bet back then Thomas Jefferson didn’t think an African-American would ever be President, either…

    1. 200 years?!! Krunk killer. I’m a pre-trib believer myself. I want it to be sooner rather than later. It’s true things are very, very bad right now, but it’s still nothing like it will be when God pours out His judgment. People have gotten the time-line wrong before, and Mr. Shoebat makes a compelling argument. What matters is that we are ready for whenever it is. I get chills thinking about it sometimes (the good kind of chills).

    2. I certainly would like a much more detailed explanation of this 200 years to go.

      The covenant could be as simple as the muslim’s recognizing Israel as a nation – and that could be months, or it could be a 2 state solution – who knows?

      But I firmly believe – all the things Jesus spoke of in Mathew 24 are happening at present and he says when we see all these things look up – redemption is here.

  5. Well that is certainly a fine job of torturing scripture to present an Islam centric end times view. Everywhere this guy or his books travel dissension follows among Christians. I am certain of one thing, I can read and understand the entire bible without this guy’s assistance. To those of you who are truly born again Christians I can only recommend that you keep your distance.

    1. To refute Walid you need to be much more elaborate. Point by point, showing us the error of his interpretations. Otherwise, you are merely disparaging an obviously learned man.

      1. No I don’t. I gave warning, research it yourself or not. I don’t need to write a lengthy essay. BTW what made you decided that he is “obviously learned”? If professing Christians jump on this bandwagon, so be it.

  6. I haven’t read all of your comments – but hope to do so. If I am repeating something – sorry.

    I am very flexible on prophecy and have not bought completely into what Wallid believes, but am reading and listening.

    I have formulated many alternate theories other than what I’ve been taught. Daniel 8 being one of them. Here I agree somewhat with Wallid, however, Daniel 8 says “an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground”.

    This seems to me the “force” that comes at the ram extends from grecia farther to the west than he suggests, i.e. the whole earth meaning lots of nations, unless I am reading it wrong.

    One side note here – since ancient warriors used horses and chariots – they had to touch the ground. This “force” is using planes, drones. sanctions or whatever.

    Still working on trying to understand it completely, but he does add to many voids in prophecy that haven’t made sense to date.

  7. Still working my way through this.

    I wish Mr. Phares had not used the word “nationalism.” It doesn’t really mean what I believe he is implying. Nationalism is a lot like tribalism, and tribalism is the source of racism.

    I prefer a strong nation, held in firm control by the people, who may honorably prefer their own nation to all others. But I detest basic nationalist sentiment and policies, which are far more like the hooliganism that goes on in soccer.

    1. a strong nation, held in firm control by the people, who may honorably prefer their own nation to all others

      That is pure nationalism,

      1. No, it’s simply preference. When you choose a latte over a cup of truck stop java, that doesn’t mean you are “dairyist.”

        Nationalism is the enactment of policies not based on simple defense, but on pride, jealousy, and other unconstitutional concepts. Things like protectionism, dumping, and government-instituted racism.

        Did you know you cannot become a citizen of Germany unless your parents are German citizens? (unless they changed it recently) That’s nationalism.

        1. 1.1 The Basic Concept of Nationalism

          Although the term “nationalism” has a variety of meanings, it centrally encompasses the two phenomena noted at the outset: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their identity as members of that nation and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take in seeking to achieve (or sustain) some form of political sovereignty (see for example, Nielsen 1998–9, 9). Each of these aspects requires elaboration. (1) raises questions about the concept of a nation or national identity, about what it is to belong to a nation, and about how much one ought to care about one’s nation. Nations and national identity may be defined in terms of common origin, ethnicity, or cultural ties, and while an individual’s membership in the nation is often regarded as involuntary, it is sometimes regarded as voluntary. The degree of care for one’s nation that is required by nationalists is often, but not always, taken to be very high: according to such views, the claims of one’s nation take precedence over rival contenders for authority and loyalty (see Berlin 1979, Smith 1991, Levy 2000, and the discussion in Gans 2003; for a more extreme characterization see the opening pages of Crosby 2005).

          (2) raises questions about whether sovereignty entails the acquisition of full statehood with complete authority for domestic and international affairs, or whether something less than statehood would suffice. Although sovereignty is often taken to mean full statehood (Gellner 1983, ch. 1), more recently possible exceptions have been recognized (Miller 1992, 87 and Miller, 2000). Some authors defend even an anarchist version of patriotism-moderate nationalism, foreshadowed by Bakunin (see Robert Sparrow, “For the Union Makes Us Strong: Anarchism and Patriotism”, in Primoratz and Pavkovic 2007).

          Despite these definitional worries, there is a fair amount of agreement about what is historically the most typical, paradigmatic form of nationalism. It is the one which features the supremacy of the nation’s claims over other claims to individual allegiance, and which features full sovereignty as the persistent aim of its political program. Territorial sovereignty has traditionally been seen as a defining element of state power, and essential for nationhood. It was extolled in classic modern works by Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau, and is coming back to the center stage of the debate, though philosophers are now more questioning and skeptical (see below). It is the control of the movement of money and people (in particular immigration) and the resource rights implied in territorial sovereignty that make the topic into a politically central one in the age of globalization, and philosophically interesting for nationalists and anti-nationalists alike.

          The territorial state as political unit is seen by nationalists as centrally ‘belonging’ to one ethnic-cultural group, and actively charged with protecting and promulgating its traditions. This form is exemplified by the classical, “revivalist” nationalism, that was most prominent in the 19th century in Europe and Latin America. This classical nationalism later spread across the world, and in present days still marks many contemporary nationalisms.

          1. Definition #1 is simply redefining preference as nationalism, which is a silly thing to do; which clearly the author of that definition knows. Otherwise why go into so much elaboration on the second definition?

            No one with any shred of desire to intellectually discuss the problems associated with genuine (definition #2) Nationalism, will bother to include soccer hooligans as part of the serious consequences.

            More significantly, our founders built our nation around the concept of Personal Sovereignty. Your right to live your life for your own sake. Our national identity comes from that. It does not mean we are, as a nation, in favor of Nationalist policies. (Of course, Obama and company are so anti-Nationalist that they are doing their best to eliminate the very concept of nation, even while engaging in the nationalization of industry here.)

            But Americans usually prefer our way of life. That’s preference, no matter how many scholars fall all over themselves to declare otherwise.

  8. The anti-christ might be erdogan or it might not be erdogan himself, but perhaps a successor. It is very interesting that all 7 churches of Revelation are in “asia” and happen to be in turkey.

  9. I come from a background that said roman catholicism was the end times bad guy rather than islam. It never quite added up to me. But, if it is islam, then how do you factor in the various time prophecies: a) time, times and half a time of daniel 7, and b) 2300 days prophecy of daniel 8.

  10. If i understand it well jesus and the mahdi are coming after a big war .

    ain,t that nice !!???

    The lords of peace , yep, i know you have to believe it.

    Would be nice jesus and the mahdi ridding on nuclear cruise missiles.

    That would be heavenly firework , !!

    I,am more than happy that i go to the atheistic hell because your heaven is for me a bit to strange , more a hell to me.

    1. No the Mahdi the real dijal will be defeated and destroyed by the real Nahdi which is Christ. Allah is not God. If you understood that you’d take a different view of heaven. It isn’t the Jihadi paradise spoken of in the Muslim trilogy. the alternative is much worse than the Muhammed described.

      1. You have a problem here 1500,000,000 people think that allah is the real god.

        lets fight about it who is right, oke ?

        O i know the gods are coming back to earth ridding nukes to have a battle for the believers.

        For me is that complete insane, so fill the rest in by yourself

        But i wanna make you a bit happy, i,am more at your side if shit hits the fan, want so far i know you don,t want to kill me as being an atheist, mo slims will be more than happy to separate mine head from my body.

        Bur after the big heavenly battle will you lock me up in a re education camp for atheist ??

        Can i trust you ?

        I will deal whit your god by myself, or are you as mo slims are the guardians of your god and think you have to fulfill his wishes on earth.

        1. You do know the global world order is here. You do know the one world currency is going to happen. You do know the mark of the beast where you can’t buy or sell is coming. We do see Nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, knowledge increased – everyone is offended – world turning against christians, I could go on and on forever.

          All prophesied in the bible. Happening before our eyes.

          Jesus said when you “SEE” (web cams live as they occur) ALL these thing (we do) look up things are gonna change drastically.

          When they tell you to take the mark of the beast – I think you better think long and very hard about it before you do. You DO NOT want to know what comes next if you do.

        2. 1. “You have a problem here 1500,000,000 people think that allah is the real god.”
          Me: Doesn’t matter. The Allah-believers will be slaughtered by the real God in Israel in the greatest land battle in all of history. In the end their false prophet and his false god will be cast into hell. They got the problem.

          2. “lets fight about it who is right, oke ?”
          Me: Your English is vague. Or see #1

          3. “O i know the gods are coming back to earth ridding nukes to have a battle for the elievers.For me is that complete insane, so fill the rest in by yourself”

          Me: Not for me it is not. I’m not an atheist or a Muslim. My God IS Itah. Allah is not.

          4.But i wanna make you a bit happy, i,am more at your side if shit hits the fan, want so far i know you don,t want to kill me as being an atheist, mo slims will be more than happy to separate mine head from my body.

          Me: I already know that. Go check out all the atheists at IslamWatch. They are all saying the same thing.

          6. Bur after the big heavenly battle will you lock me up in a re education camp for atheist ??
          Me: You’ll have to go to North Korea or China if you are looking for a re-education camp.After the big battle it won’t be up to Christians to judge where you end up.

          7. Can i trust you ?
          What’s the old Russian proverb? Trust but verify?

          8. I will deal whit your god by myself, or are you as mo slims are the guardians of your god and think you have to fulfill his wishes on earth.

          Me: Muslims convert by force or stealth. Christians convert by reason and argumentation alone. Christians just follow the Scriptures, they don’t go out and slaughter the whole world. Don’t confuse Koran, Hadith with Christian Bible. The two philosophies are diametrically opposed to one another. Our mission is to try and convince people to turn away from sin and to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Cause that’s the only way anyone is going to heaven. Muslim paradise doesn’t exist.But Hell sure does. So the object of the game is to try and convince others to avoid the fate of hell. That’s our God’s will on earth as well as Heaven.

          You’re free to be whatever you want to be. Real Itah gives you that right. Fake Itah (Allah) does not.

          1. Just some remarks

            The Allah-believers will be slaughtered by the real God in Israel in the greatest land battle in all of history. In the end their false prophet and his false god will be cast into hell. They got the problem.

            and :You’re free to be whatever you want to be. Real Itah gives you that right.

            me : a strange conception of freedom , you do what god say otherwise i kill you !! in this the god, s are the same !! or is it there earthly guardians ??

            me: English is not my native tongue

            You’ll have to go to North Korea or China if you are looking for a re-education camp

            me: you sure about that, fema camps ?? or will i be killed by the god,s because i do not fit in that gog and magog picture !

            The rest of you reaction leave i for what it is, : to much work to for me to show you the facts and the incorrect statements.

            1. Ah so you’re just here to be a protagonist huh? And you don’t have any facts to offer. All you got is some weird perception of spiritual things. Yeah, you’re not a great English speaker. But I got your points. Apparently you missed the lionshare of mine.

              1. Nope i,am her to make clear that the battle in front of us must be not an religious battle on our side but one on facts, that god thing is contra productive you will lose a lot of support for the cause.
                More an antagonist

                And are you now asking me about facts about religion ???

                I have a weird perception about spiritual things ! jees and the believers tell us that the god,s are coming to wipe out 1.5 milliard people !!

                That is sick !!!!

                Let me explain is so

                If you continue whit that shit of my god is better than an other god you are losing my support.
                Because i see you the same as the islamic idiots.

                And do not be self-righteousness about my spiritual being, you do not know anything about it, not one letter.

                You have the same mental problem as a lot of other believers.

                Keep your faith private and do not use it as an argument , argue on base of facts !
                So you will gain strength !

                1. So I’m right. You have no facts. All you have is visceral, emotional vituperative drivel to back up your arguements. I’ve heard many an atheist defend their side and one or two were very good. Can’t say the same for you. Your reply is illogical. One reply, you say you know that Christians aren’t like Muslims, in the next reply, you say they are. Make up your mind. My strength is in Christ. Yours is in frail and mortal humans. Your god is you.

    2. Hell is eternal separation from the loving God.I feel sad for you.It is only your lack of understanding that causes you to feel the way you do.

      1. Don’t forget it is at the same time a full understanding of the love of God and that it was a personal decision to remove oneself from that love.

          1. Not exactly sure what you mean by this. I’m not claiming that I have that full understanding– What I’m saying is Hell involved a full understanding of what we freely chose to reject, which is the love of God. That is at the heart of the torments of Hell.

            1. what is it now full understanding ore not ?

              Jees read your last comment again , no hell for me , i do not understand it neither for you, you are claiming that you are not fully understand it so ??

              no hell and heaven , so forget the rest, don,t be afraid, free yourself from the fear ore what some people call love .

              You can do it !

              1. An understanding of Hell can be gained by considering what we know of God from scripture and logically extending using a philosophical structure– this is called Theology.

                Using Theology we can arrive at an understanding (not full) that Hell is a privation of God (all evil is a privation of good, Hell being the most deprived state). God sustains all creation in existence, therefore while one may choose (free will) to sin and accept Hell over God, God still holds that sinner in existence (out of love) yet now in a perfected state one becomes fully aware (my full knowledge comment) of how exactly God exists (love, but a total understanding we are not yet able to comprehend) AND at the same time, that through one’s own free will God is now unattainable– because the sinner has chosen him/herself over God.

                It’s basically the Garden of Eden all over again, banished from paradise because the sinner didn’t want to listen to the wisdom of God. The full consequence of prideful defiance of the wisdom of God isn’t known until Adam and Eve are cast out of paradise.

                Hope this helps you understand what I was saying. In summary, in Hell one gains a full understanding– I, not being in Heaven or Hell, do not currently possess such understanding.

                1. Yep i understand you well and it is the same old same

                  You set a premise as a factual truith and from there you try to make a logical extending.

                  I read and hear that a 1000 times , I do not buy that.

                2. Why don’t you “buy” that? Is scripture meant to be taken literally, word for word, as truth? There is no imagery or analogies used?

                3. Because your premise is wrong, same mistake the mo slims make that the koraan are the words of the allah god !
                  so al logical extension on a wrong premise are wrong

    3. Perhaps you do not understand it so well.

      …..this may be the beginning of a better understanding–or the continuation of ignorance.

      1. A ha the million dollar question will the real god stand up, or are you telling me now that the god of the koraan is the same as the god of the bible ?
        Please enlighten me !

        1. I am not telling you anything you do not already know. Since, you are questioning here, you are apparently traveling a road in search of a belief-system you can live/die with.

          All I am saying, is that it is a choice we all have to make about how we wish to live our lives…searching for truths, or just plodding along in ignorance.

          What G-d you choose to believe in/or not, is, of course, up to you.

          1. Nope, i,am not searching for a belief system, i am a hard core atheist.

            And about thats ignorance and searching for the truth, when are you ready to start ??

            Believing is different from knowing on the base of facts !

            By the way, you are an atheist to, i go just one belief further !

      2. The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.

        You make a common mistake, believing is not the same as knowing based on facts !

        And information without a factual base are complete worthless to me.

        So there you are whit you christian morality, insulting whit out a factual base.

        intelligent design, in your case he forgot the intelligent part.

        1. Well if I made a mistake regarding your ignorance, then I will apply the same mistake to myself and all others. We are all ignorant of many things. Nobody in this physical world can claim not to be.

          I wish I could speak Vietnamese, but I can not and am to lazy to try to learn, so I will remain ignorant of that particular language.

          The trick, is to always be trying to become not ignorant about something.

  11. Joel Rosenberg, a messianic Christian, has written a series of novels about Biblical prophecy and the end times. They are worth reading. The next novel in the second series is due in early March.

  12. Thought I would share this link to a pastor who does weekly prophecy updates. If you go to his you tube site you can go through hundreds of previous videos, these are videos of his sermons in his church. Aloha Bible prophecy pastor JD Farag.

    1. I would very much like to recommend the videos of Pastor JD Farag. i have been watching them for a year now. Thousands of people watch them and can’t wait for them to be posted on Youtube every Sunday evening.

  13. Many times one must see the bad to appreciate the good. Obama and his followers are the evil in this country. Will we see any good come to pass from this rocky road?

  14. O/T: No open thread, so I’ll put this link here with little comment, and ask folks please do not respond here.

    Hugh Hewitt’s radio program had Rep. John Campbell subbing in today, and he did a long-form interview with Rep. Paul Ryan. It’s long, so I’m hoping folks can read it and summarize their take on it in the next open thread.

    Paul Ryan interviewed by John Campbell

    [It’s wonky. It shows why Ryan has been pretty quiet (he’s actually getting work done). It also shows why Ryan isn’t much of a standard bearer. I’ll explain later. See y’all in an Open Thread.]

  15. Thanks for this one Scoop…I`m a BIG fan of Walid Shoebat and feel his views Command attention and respect. If I may share: “And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall recieve power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” The Acts 1:7&8…Peace be with you….

    1. Man have you got that right. In addition one of the worst things one can do, especially on “opinion sites” like this, is to get into religious “discussions”, that’s something to take up with your Pastor or Bible study classes.
      It is bad enough that we are knee deep into Political discussions, heeding all the advice, and caution, we ever heard all of our life.

      1. Well if you plan on hanging out here. We do this all the time. If you object then you can always leave…or stick around. Your choice.

        1. Absolutely NO objection from this end, 911 !!! The misguided in my prayers are the followers of islam and nonbelievers. I`m Sorry if I offended you or anyone else; that`s not intended….

        2. We do this all the time. If you object then you can always leave…or stick around. Your choice.

          Feeling pretty good about yourself don’t you? What is this supposed to mean?
          Your way or Highway?
          Your understanding, of the word ‘opinion’ and the word ‘object’ do not have the same meaning.
          I will stop for now, I’m getting a bad taste in my mouth.

          1. Well you might try some mouth wash or tooth paste. And I meant what I said. We do “religion” here a lot and will continue to do so. If that bothers you then then you got two choices, leave or stay. But we’ll keep posting those “religious” topic items again, and again and again. Its not a matter of “feeling good about myself” its just a natural fact.

      2. Thanks for the input NPC. I should say tho, I admire anyone who shares their faith, wherever, whenever. It often inspires me to utilize the tool I have, the Bible, to enrich my own beliefs. It has also helped me better understand the realization that islam is in No way a religion, but rather a Radical Political agenda disquised as a religion. The misguided are among those in my prayers. I believe I am as good as anyone and better tha no one. Peace be with you….

      3. I respectfully disagree. It is wonderful that we are talking about our father and his son as well as political issues. The more people that are talking about, and thinking about, our father, the better off, we as a nation will be…the gov’t and other dark forces would love it, if we never talked about HIM or used his name,ever again.

        It seems to me that we have an intelligent group of regulars on this site and they don’t take anything with a grain of salt, they research and investigate before coming to any set conclusion.

      4. I see no one here telling you what to believe.

        I don’t believe anyone is telling you not to take up these discussions with your Pastor.

        I don’t hear anyone threatening to cut your head off for not agreeing with their interpretations.

    2. Interpretation is not dogma. Interpretation of prophecy is something that only the Spirit of God can give. I been studying prophecy for years and years and Walid is spot on in his commentary. He and Joel Richardson are now the two finest prophetic messengers on the planet today IMHO. If you read the whole series that Walid presnts and pick up the book “God’s War On Terror” he makes prophecy sound crystal clear.

      1. Perhaps I should have stated Interpreting beliefs…Pastor Melissa Scott is another who could be considered a prophetic messenger….

        1. Personally I don’t put any stock in “prophetic messengers”. But I have to admit, Walid and Joel Richardson have the gift of prophetic analysis. They are the best that I’ve ever encountered.

        2. Among other things, it is important to remain alert to the fact that there is no such thing as a female pastor.

          There may be deluded females who hold themselves out as ‘pastors’ and their deluded followers willingly participating in the ungodly falsehood–but there are no female pastors.

          This truth is perhaps even greater than, though not entirely different from, that recently pointed out by a Catholic theologian–‘legalizing gay marriage is like legalizing male breastfeeding’–it is impossible nonsense…

          The idea of a female ‘pastor’ is the same.

          1. Thanks for the link Major. Titles aside, I feel she is involved in helping people better understand the bible, as did my mother when teaching my Sunday school class when I was a child. More like the later part discussed in your link. Nonetheless, I believe Ms. Scott is part of the solution.Check her out when you get a chance. Peace be with you….

  16. Wow! This is so fascinating and confusing. I feel like I need to forget everything I was taught as a child and re-learn!

  17. I think much of what he is saying is true in regard to the Middle Eastern side of things, but I have my serious doubts about America. IMO it all depends on the timing.

    No nation in the history of the world that has faced the threat of judgment from God has EVER repented, save one — Nineveh. Nineveh was the only culture in the history of the world that ever repented and staved off God’s judgment.

    America has been thumbing its nose at God for years now. It is becoming more secular by the day. It is condoning all sorts of perverted lifestyles and filth that God had destroyed previous civilizations over (ie Sodom & Gomorrah). America murders its unborn and treats Jesus Christ like a curse word (a name that should NEVER be uttered in public for fear of offending someone, unless of course it is used as a curse word). Our leaders either run from God or outlaw Him altogether, and yet now we’re to believe that America will get a pass and be amongst the nations who will nobly come to Israel’s aide? We have a president (and others in government) who hate Israel; it’s difficult to see that!

    Like I said, it may happen, it all depends on the timing of this IMO, but if God gives America a pass for her sins He will have to repent for allowing the destruction of other nations for theirs.

    I’m more inclined to side with Jonathan Cahn in regard to America’s future. It doesn’t look pretty. A Third Great Awakening is the only thing that will save America. And frankly, I don’t think the CHURCHES of America can stomach that.

      1. Walid stated in one of his videos that it is not the country (America) so much, but the Christians in the country that will make the difference. He said to not lose hope, that WE make the difference for Israel in our actions to keep our Congress on board for Israel and our prayers for her. So, if he is right, we need to keep praying and pressing on with letting our Reps and Sens know we want to stay friends with and protect Israel when needed.

      1. See Leviticus 26:17 – which says when God’s people sin, break His Covenant and Commandments, those who hate them will rule over them.

    1. ISRAEL repented time after time in Scripture…when they had suffered and been taken captive by their enemies, then somehow rediscovered and heard the Word of God and were grieved by their sinfulness.

  18. I have been telling people that I hear hoof beats for many months now.Look up,your redemption draws near.

  19. Thank you RS and Walid for all the information. Those who deny the Bible will be sadly disappointed in the end times. I have always, from a young age believed in God and the Bible but found that most preachers did not understand the Bible at all. And they sure did not live by it. All these huge churches in this country should be schools for our children teaching fundamental reading, math based on Biblical teachings.

  20. I still am a believer in a pre tribulation rapture, so I hope to be gone by the time the A/C is revealed. But, if I’m wrong, I still know how our Story ends and it’s all good! 🙂
    No matter,
    According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
    For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
    Philippians 1:20,21

    1. I have recently found myself questioning the pre tribulation rapture.I see the persecution of Christians taking place throughout the world.I hope you are right.I used to be sure of that belief.

      1. I can’t read Matthew Chapter 24 and believe in the pre tribulation view. And the Bible is clear Jesus will not return before the “son of perdition” is revealed.
        I believe that the great falling away occurred during the dark ages.

        2 Thessalonians 2:3

        3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        But, for whatever else, I do know that the “Left Behind” series is fiction. To think that millions may be deluded because of those books is beyond awful and terribly sad.

        1. You’re right badbad, that Jesus won’t physically come back until the Antichrist has been revealed, but I don’t believe the physical return is the same event as the rapture, when He brings His believers to Him. 🙂

            1. The time when Jesus calls us “in the air” will not be a time when all will see Him. Or expect Him.

              Matthew 24:44 “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh”

              1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

              1 Thes. 5:9 “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

              Jesus’s second coming will be seen by all the earth and will be known to be soon according to signs.

              Matthew 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

              Luke 21:25-28 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift your heads, becasue your redemption is drawing near.”

              I believe that the church, the true believers will not suffer the wrath during the great tribulation times. Just as He saved Noah, Lot and Rahab He will save His own from coming judgement.

              But, I could be wrong, like I said in my first comment. It’s just that I look for his return rather than the A/C, but it is good and I’m glad Scoop posts these, because it’s just more proof that Jesus is coming again and hopefully very soon! 😀

              1. Though 1st Thess does mention we will meet him in the air, it does not mention that Jesus stops or does a 180 afterwards. It is probably more likely that as He is on his way down to proceed with judgment that we are taken up to meet Him, just to follow Him back down.

                1. I’ve heard that interpretation before Puritan, but frankly, and again I might be wrong, but that never made sense to me that Jesus would bring us up, just to have us immediately follow Him back down.

                2. I am just re-posted what I posted above. I think this is a great place to begin studying the Rapture.

                  This study has many passages and facets which revolve around the rapture. One of the KEY passage which is good to START with is:

                  John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

                  Jesus is promising to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time, or circumstances, only that there will be a coming of Jesus for His saints. You’ll see that the purpose of this coming is to TAKE THEM where HE IS GOING. Jesus was going to Heaven. This passage described him coming to take them to HEAVEN with Him (in His Father’s house), not raise them up and bring them back down for His battle before He begins the millennial reign.

                3. If you are familiar with how wars were fought in the ancient world, and as it still happens sometimes today, when the conqueror comes in to liberate a city/town, often those who supported him would rush out to meet him when he approached the city/town, and welcome him back in. The 1 Thess. passage has been read in that way by some since the 2nd century AD. Also, in 2 Thess. 2:1-4 Paul says, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Messiah and OUR BEING GATHERED TOGETHER TO HIM, we ask you brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind…For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”
                  I would take that to indicate that we are not taken to be with Jesus until 1) his coming, and 2) the man of lawlessness (what most people call antichrist) is revealed, not hidden on the scene. Revealed.
                  It’s also interesting to note that there is no evidence the pre-trib (Dispensational) view existed before the early 1800’s. It grew up around a revival movement in England and the US in the early 1800’s. Also, most believers I have talked to in/from heavily persecuted regions do not hold to that view. But here in the West where we think wealth and comfort are some of God’s greatest blessings, that view has caught on.
                  I know most people believe it because they were taught it, but I cannot make it fit the majority of passages relating to the return of Jesus, and it is oddly absent in any form whatsoever in the Revelation of John.
                  By the way, John never uses the word church (ekklesia) for anything other than a local gathering of believers in a particular city. His word for all the believers is not the church, but the saints. And that word occurs multiple times in his Revelation, usually talking about persecution.

                4. Taken in that context about supporters makes sense. I forgot about that.
                  I still don’t believe God will leave His faithful here during the tribulation time though, when He begins to pour His wrath out. Persecution yes, as I’ve said elsewhere here, it’s always gone on and will, and I don’t expect us in the west to be immune from it. Whenever Jesus comes will be in His time. Whether it’s before, during or after, I can rest in the promise that He will be coming. 🙂

              2. I tend to agree ABC. My evangelist grandfather taught of the rapture taking place prior to any real harm coming to his believers. I still believe that. I believe the fear that will be left after the rapture will be the beginning of the second half of the tribulation…haven’t looked up the scriptures to post though. Thank you for doing that, by the way.

                1. You’re welcome Kelly. Like others, I believe there will be (as there is and has been) persecution against believers, so I don’t believe we’ll escape that, but God’s wrath is a whole different thing, and I honestly do not believe believers will be around for that.

              1. True. Many people forget that part. The Holy Spirit will do a great work, there will be a national repentance on the part of Israel at that time.

          1. Also, at the Rapture we meet him in the air. The Second Coming he plants his feet on ground. Two different events. There will be Christians persecuted on earth, but they will be those who came to Christ after the Rapture. And, the Rapture does not signal the beginning of the Tribulation, the signing of the seven year peace treaty between the Antichrist and Israel is what begins the countdown. There could be a lapse of time between the Rapture and the Tribulation.

            1. Why couldn’t it be all one event? We need to remember that we are talking about the Creator. We could be meeting Him as He is coming down at the same time. It is not out of the realm of possibility.

              1. This study has many passages and facets which revolve around the rapture. One of the KEY passage which is good to START with is:

                John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

                Jesus is promising to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time, or circumstances, only that there will be a coming of Jesus for His saints. You’ll see that the purpose of this coming is to TAKE THEM where HE IS GOING. Jesus was going to Heaven. This passage described him coming to take them to HEAVEN (With Him in His Father’s house), not raise them up and bring them back down for His battle before He begins the millennial reign.

                The 2nd coming is different. Jesus comes with his armies from heaven arrayed in fine white linen, where his robes are dipped in blood:

                Rev 19:11-16 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself.13 He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses.15 From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

                There are other verses to study, OT and NT, which revolve around this time that will include the return of the Lord. I’ll post a few. This study won’t happen in this forum, but after many years of studying the bible systematically. I am very comfortable that the pretribulational Rapture is sound doctrine. Here are other verses:

                1Th 4:13-18; 1Cr 15:50-58; Matt 24:30; Acts 1:9-11; Matt 16:27; Luke 21:34-37; Jude 14-15; 1 Thess 1:9-10; 1 Thess 5:1-10 [we are not appointed unto wrath]; Revelation 3:10 [kept from the hour of trial]; Rev 2:2 [false believers (within a weak church) to be thrown into the tribulation]

                Scroll down and check out what AmericanborninCanada posted too. Hers is what I meant by different “facets.” She is talking about the whole earth seeing Jesus, whereas, at the Rapture only the believers will see. There is also the “immanency” of the Rapture that can happen at ANYTIME, during the Tribulation, we KNOW that Jesus returns that the end of 7 years RIGHT on time.

                1. though there is some good thought there and it would be hard to imagine it not happening. We also need to remember that this place that Jesus is building for us may be the new heavens and new earth or the new Jerusalem that is to come down.

                  I agree that there is two judgements according to Rev. However, the first one would seem to be at the start of the millennium while the second is at the end when Satan is set free. It is quite possible that Jesus in John 14 refers to these rooms as the New Jerusalem. It is not out of the realm of possibilities.

                  I agree that we are not appointed to wrath, for Jesus did pay on the cross for us. I do believe that we will not suffer God’s wrath when it is poured out on us. Look at the Exodus! Did the people of Israel suffer under God’s judgements? How? Is it not as possible that this could happen for us as well if Scripture interprets Scripture. Granted, I do hold to a rapture view but the pre-trib view’s biggest problem is with Matt 24.

                  John 14 only demonstrates that He will return. You are conjecturing as to what that exactly looks like and may be stretching it a bit.

                2. Revelation 21:1 -22:5
                  Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; ….

                  The (Rev 21:1-22-5) Scriptures give detail description of the New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem will descend at the –end– of the Millennium, not before the Tribulation and will be our eternal habitation. We already will have been with Jesus when the New Jerusalem appears. We don’t get raptured to go there.

                  If the “Church” is being protected and sheltered throughout the Tribulation there sure are a whole lot of Christians who are being beheaded throughout this event.

                  Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

                  Those being beheaded are the tribulation saints. After the church, who is protected, is taken to heaven to be with the Lord, where He is.The Rapture isn’t a doctrine that is pertinent to salvation, so in the long run, whether it be pre or post, our salvation isn’t dependent upon it.

                3. Believe me, I know and praise the Lord that the Rapture is not salvation dependent. On the other hand, I do enjoy the debating of such things as it is a low stress enjoyable, iron-sharpen-iron.

                  I had have some time communicating with two Jews about Christ on one thread and 911 caused some interesting havoc with RCC and I am still dialoguing with one person regarding the theology of RCC.

                  This is much more enjoyable!

        2. I can see your point,but as ABiC said the tribulation may not be the same event as Christs physical return.I will have to consider all this prayerfully and with a lot of time in the word.There are other scriptures concerning these events,that I will have to take a fresh look at.

        3. I tend to agree with you bbl. I had to do some exegetical work in Matthew 24 that made me switch from pre-trib rapture to what some may call pre-wrath rapture. There is too much going on with the saints still around.

        4. I notice in your #3 it mentions ‘sitting in the Temple of G-D’ …. which hasn’t existed since it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD (Yahshua/Jesus predicted this would take place – recorded in Matthew 24 —> ‘not one stone will be left upon another’ … this was literally fulfilled when the Roman soldiers prised apart the stones to obtain the gold which had melted in the inferno as the Temple burned, and run all over the stones which had fallen)

          so – to my way of thinking, there needs to be a 3rd Temple built before 2 Thess 3 can be fulfilled.

          1. It could be about the Far Mosque which sits in the old Temple courtyard. If so, its already built. Its a false temple built on the Lord’s Holy ground.

        5. We are living in a new dark ages. I believe we are living in the falling away. 86% of Americans say they are Christians. However, when broken down, only about 15% actually believe Jesus is God, that He actually died and rose again to redeem us from our sins, that Jesus is the only way to real faith. That number is receding quickly, as the Enemy has foisted upon America a new “savior”. Many in the church laugh a little uncomfortably when they hear that term, but they are true believers in him. Santa Claus is good when you haven”t seen the real thing.

      2. Oh, I never doubt we will not be persecuted, but the tribulation times, if I’ve been studying enough, seem to be God’s judgement poured out on unbelievers, those who have hardened their hearts against Him and His people, those who accept the beast (A/C), and His continuation of drawing His people Israel to Himself.

        1. There is a big difference between the tribulation period when antichrist tries to destroy Israel, Jews worldwide, and Christians. God’s wrath is the part that comes after the 6th & 7th seals are opened. All the trumpet and bowl judgements are just that…judgements from God to those who revile His name. The seals, on the other hand, are those that reveal antichrist’s reign of terror against people of faith…when Satan is unleashed to have his final outpouring of rage and contempt upon God’s faithful through antichrist.

        2. Again, I agree. I believe the rapture are those believers that he will make ready for the ultimate battle of armageddon…

      3. If you keep up with The Voice of the Martyrs, you’ll see that there is a huge persecution going on in the ME, and there are few left. Some have joined voices with the Arabs in Israel to condemn Israel for every little thing, because if they did not, they would be persecuted. Real Christians are becoming scarce.

    2. Well, remember what you read in the Bible, it says that we would have all these “smart” people telling us all about it.
      BTW a few weeks ago I was attracted to a u-tube with Walid Shoebat, I had seen him on TV in the past and felt that people were very impressed by him, other than that I didn’t pay any more attention. So after I saw the u-tube video I noticed some not favorable remarks, so I went to wikipedia and pulled his name up, and came away from it with a sour taste, you may check it out. however you might bring a few grains of salt, just in case. The only real truth spoken and written is the bible, but than again you knew that, huh.

      1. Hi NPC. I do like what Mr. Shoebat has to say, he’s got a unique perspective on Biblical events. I don’t necessarily believe or understand everything he or anyone else says about the end times- so yes, I do weigh everything I hear and compare it to what the Bible says. But even then, I read what I read, and sometimes I am given insight into what it means, but other times, the Holy Spirit is quiet and I don’t understand, which is why I try and say, when I’m giving opinions on these kinds of stories, that it’s my own understanding, and I could be wrong.
        Whatever the case may be, and I don’t understand a lot of Biblical stuff, but I have and stand on my faith that Jesus will be coming and from the signs of the times, and what He showed us in His word- the time for His coming will be soon, and I take total comfort in that, and helps me to face whatever may come.

        1. I think you take a wise approach, ABC.

          I have been taught to believe that the 10 horned beast would arise from the Old Holy Roman Empire’s maps of Europe, the One World Religion would be the Pope’s version of Catholicism and that the anti-Christ would probably emerge from Turkey. And it seemed to me that since most of Europe has succumbed to Islam, that Islam, would be a dominant feature in End Times brutality.

          But, I have to say that Mr. Shoebat makes a great case for his interpretation of End times. In the past, I thought his emphasis on the Middle East reining supreme because of his background, like a specialty surgeon that thinks that every health problem stems from a need to have his/her surgical specialty.

          But, I want to research this more carefully.

          About the Rapture, I heard a minister say the other day that she believed we would have two Raptures, at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation and as we were at the mid-way point.

          I’m not sure about the timing of the Rapture. I pray that we all get Ruptured before the 7 year Tribulation.

      2. Wikipedia? LOL I know professors in universities and high schools who give failing grades to anyone who cites a Wiki reference as a source.

          1. Yep. at least they are smart enough to reject a highly politicized source like Wiki. i’d say that’s pretty astute on their part.

      3. Wikipedia? Not a place I’d check out a Christian. On youtube there are those who come against Walid, as well. If you see who they are, you understand. They are muslims. There are also those who are pre-tribers who claim he is a heretic because he doesn’t subscribe to that view. Nor do I. I’ll be happy to be called a heretic in that case. I’ve done extensive study and cannot (without the aid of extra-biblical books) connect the pre-trib views to explain to someone else. Believe me, I tried to years ago and got very frustrated in the effort. I have come to the conclusion myself that the rapture takes place at the opening of the 6th seal.

    3. The tribulation seems to be upon us…every day increasing the heat and turmoil like a slowly heating pot coming to a boil.

  21. I find it interesting that a past mohammedan and a Messianic Jew have come to the same conclusion about the false religion and the false prophet who started it.
    Meanwhile, there are those old school Christians such as Brannon Howse who still cling to the wrongheaded belief that the Catholic Church is the false religion.
    I always find it interesting that those who are 2 steps removed from a situation sits back and tells those who have skin in the game how much they are wrong.
    Howse, who is a Calvinist, cannot give up on Calvin’s misguided beliefs, i.e. that God was through with Israel because of one verse in the New Testament (the Israel of God), and could not see the Jews ever going back to Israel due to the overbearing conquering by the muhammedans. Even though Howse is living in modern times, born after the return of the Jews to Israel, he is still to enamored with the vapid ramblings of a long dead false doctrine pusher which has been the bane of rightly divided doctrine.

    1. I think the mistake that so many Christians make (throughout history) is believing they have the truth – all the answers. The evangelical community today is certainly adamant that anyone who questions their doctrine is dangerous and they are immediately condemned. We hear about being in error, falling away, and false teaching. They are terrified of questions – but I don’t think God is. I am instantly reminded of the way the Roman Catholic Church responded to Marco Polo, Galileo, and Martin Luther. I think we have to be very careful what we “know”. It is very clear that Walid Shoebat understands the complexities of the Middle East in a way that no Westerner does, and that insight sheds a lot of light on events and prophecy and it is hugely enlightening. He makes perfect sense, when I think we have been guessing and surmising for centuries, trying to make sense out of things we could not possibly understand!

      1. That’s just it. Walid has borrowed heavily from past Biblical scholars. The idea that the anti-Christ would come from Rome if I’m not mistaken has its origins in the 1920’s. Its pretty obvious from reading the Epistles of John, that the Roman Church is not the anti-Christ.

        1. Both Calvin AND Luther said that the Roman Church was the harlot of Revelation. Both Shoebat and Cohn are closer to the truth than westerners, and should be listened to. It was Michael that fought the “Prince of Persia” a powerful Demonic Lord over the middle east. I cannot understand how we can witness the demonic ravings of a religion like mohammedanism and their evil acts and not see what is really going on. It IS the false religion, and their future mahdi is the anti-christ.

          1. Well in order to be the harlot that religion would have to fall in line with I John 2:22 and the Roman Church does not. That Harlot rises from the desert. Rome is not in a desert. She holds a cup of wine in her hand that intoxicates the world; that she excg=hnages for the blood of the saints. That’s a real good description of Saudi arabia if one makes the connection that that “wine” is oil. Islam is most definitely the religion of Satan. Allah has 99 names. Some of which include “The Lord of the dawn” Sounds like the description of Lucifer in isaiah. Also the Most Proud One. Again a description of Lucifer. The greatest of deceivers. The Greatest of schemers….Allah is the exact opposite of God. Allah is not Itah. Eloheim is Itah and Jesus is His Son. And the Mahdi is the anti-Christ.

              1. That’s true it is. But the hills are not literals they are metaphors. I believe the metaphor means kings or kingdoms.The Babylonian whore is not the Pope. and the wine in her hand is not Pizza sauce. Its oil. And Rome is not in a desert by the sea, but Saudi Arabia is. Rome is not mentioned in judgement, but Arabia is.

                1. The issue is there are those who are so blinded by their entrenched positions that they cannot let go of outdated reasonings. Similar to those who are cessationists insisting that “When that which is perfect is come” refers to the completed word of God. Jesus is perfect, so I say it refers to his second coming.

      2. The Days of Vengeance by David Chilton from Dominion press is a very interesting exposition on the book of Revelation. The Vision of John was about a current event that was happening. So many fail to except that what was, was then, not now. As far as what will be now I am not able to divine the future. But I will stand for Righteousness, and therefore for the Lord Jesus. What ever the future brings I know that their has always been those who serve the enemy of the Lord and until He wraps up the universe and ends His work with the creation that we exist in (earth, sun, moon, stars etc., if He does indeed wrap-it-up) I will have to deal with whatever comes my way. Light and darkness do not mix, the dark will FLEE from the light. Promotion of death and destruction will bring in more of the same. Their own ways will reprove them, or in this case perhaps end them. We tend to forget that the Lord is lord of ALL. Remember He said that all power and authority is given to him and also that the Lord God would give Him the earth as His inheritance. What ever you believe, believe this, that the Lord Jesus is not defeated, nor his body, all things and enemies must be put under his feet, remember? How could that not be? Some of us they have killed and what have they won? His word and church still stand, and not only stands but continues to gain going forward. Let us overcome, not succumb. PTL

    2. Right on! We started feeling something wasn’t right, back in the 1980s, about the pre-trib rapture theory. Trying to defend it with Scripture, as I was, it just didn’t seem to compute, unless you had certain teachers’ books. (If you have to rely on sertain teachings of men to understand the Bible, something is wrong) We began to feel that surely, even though Daniel was told to seal the vision until the end, that God WOULD want His people to understand the things they were seeing so they could prepare…like the 10 virgins. The more we read from the Bible alone, the more we felt that we could no longer adhere to that view if we could not prove it without distorting Scripture and taking a lot of leave of common sense.

      Anyway, when we moved to Turkey, we saw the Bible in a WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY! We were recently introduced to Walid’s Bible teachings, although I’d read and listened to some of his stuff on When Rightscoop featured his video teaching, I have been looking at all his stuff on facebook. Then I read this article on yesterday. We’ve also been to Israel several times, as well. If you cannot understand the ME, I feel you will misinterpret the Bible easily. Having lived in Turkey 6 years and knowing ME friends from Israel, Iran and Iraq, as believers, you get a better worldview of the Bible and I say that Walid is right on. Who knows if it is really Erdogan, but a Turk, for sure. Erdogan is a stealth figure. He has quietly rid the Turkish military of over 300 generals and top commanders, those who have from Ataturk’s time boasted that they would never allow a religious state to reappear in Turkey. Many of these generals languish in prison, others have been killed. The military WILL NOT be enacting a coup against Erdogan.

  22. Walid makes Tim Lahaye look like a rank amateur when it comes to prophecy. But I don’t think that Erdogen is Gog. Its true that Gog “means out of the east” and that Magog is a region next to the Syrian border in Turkey. Ergo, the Mahdi/Anti-Christ will be a Turk. I think its too early to name him yet. Although Erdogen is certainly setting up Turkey to fulfill end times prophecy. Other than that little quibble, once again, Walid rocks the house.

      1. I looked at a map of modern turkey and Magog looks like its more northeasterly. Its far from Syria. But compared to Pergamus its just over the border. That Gog will come out of Turkey is without a doubt.

    1. Im on board with you. Im not sure about Erdogen either in the anti-Christ role, but the one after him….who knows. I DEFINITELY see a Caliphate forming, and our Dear Leader approves. Walid knows the Middle East players and events so well, this is stuff you wont see on any of the prophecy TV shows, this man is the real deal. When he talks about the Saudis getting nuked by Iran, man that made my hair stand up. Lil Ahmadinnerjacket and his Ayatollah would jump at that chance. They have the Mahdi fevah!

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